Opticraft Community

Quote from: optical on September 26, 2011, 09:01:34 PM
Thank your Devil, Muhn. To the other idiots, please think before you post. It pains me to read that stuff.

Now, about protections.

I am all for protections - within reason.
a 256x256x128 protection (assuming Z is the height axis), is too large in my opinion. The way i envision them being acquired and used is such that you will have to purchase them from a shop using a currency. This will take some time to earn, and you'll get a smaller area. Something like 96x96x128 or 64x64x128. You can then place multiple blocks to protect your area side by side. The key here is that it will be hard to get enough $$ to purchase these protection blocks, such that only those who have been building for some time can afford them. I would also advise that they only get used outside the spawn area, but i am unsure on how that could be enforced.

Anyhow - this is a while off. We first need the new map, an economy/shop system in place, and some other backend things - the new dedicated server, vote rewards, donation rewards and such, before protections will be a major priority.

Just asking is there a need to zone till bedrock? I mean some ppl build alot of hOuses and only have one mine, so if it's only the house won't it be better to just zone of lesser, as in not to bed rock? I hope this zoning will implement only after 1.9 comes out。
And finally a qns for muh, did ur builds in classic get zoned to prevent greif?and FYI I use /home iam4ever and it was HER who ask me build my damn house beside hers. I wasn't even thinking of building so damn far away in the first place, all my builds are near the spawn, and as far as I know only the farms got griefed none of my other builds have been. So if u don't want to get grief, ask nick to fly to a super far area and then set ur home there. And do u think u are so popular that every guest will teleport to your home?

I'm not exactly sure about zoning to bedrock.On one side people make great mines that should protected, but on the other side, zoning to bedrock is basically reserving blocks that you didnt make. I just dont think that just because u made a house above ground, you are entitled to all the ores below it. You are basically reserving resources for yourself.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 27, 2011, 01:00:44 AM
I'm not exactly sure about zoning to bedrock.On one side people make great mines that should protected, but on the other side, zoning to bedrock is basically reserving blocks that you didnt make. I just dont think that just because u made a house above ground, you are entitled to all the ores below it. You are basically reserving resources for yourself.

That's what I was trying to say.

If you don't reserve to bedrock, you cannot have a basement or anything below ground. If you can suggest something more adequate, feel free to.

Quote from: D00MKNlGHT on September 26, 2011, 11:51:16 AM
Lemme get this straight. Dont u know that ops can spawn items.based on ur shop system, whenever someone's buy a thing eg diamond, an item will be spawned hence increasing the supply, when the supply increase the value of diamond will fall(this Is economics).
Secondly zoning out an area will turn the server into like a classic server, where we display our builds. DUDE this is a SURVIAVAL game not a "make the best building game" we are supposed to survive. I feel that the protection available is sufficient for us to survive, and if u say about people intruding ur mines, if u have cleared of all the visible ores no one would even bother exploring your mine.
Lastly if u say that having a standard price for things eg warps are not good, then y is opticalza still receiving donations from his classic things?havIng a warp is a convinence ESP for those people who are willing to fork out the money.we want this server to be a HUGE server, and if we give a clear distinction between those who donated and those who have not, people will feel insulted and discriminated( eg donators can light fire) so as I said warps dose not change the playing field it is just a convience for ppl who are willing to donate to the server.

I'm going to do my best here Doom, no offense but I can't always understand your meaning.
I'm not sure where you got this shop idea from but no, nobody spawns anything. People fill a chest with one type of item that they have acquired themselves through whatever means. The biggest abuse of this I have seen is immature staff spawning the things they fill their chest with. The solution to that problem was to remove the player from staff. You are correct though if the supply does increase by magical means the demand does fall, that is economics, so you have to beat it into staff's head to NOT SPAWN ITEMS. There's no point in survival, it's not what survival is about if they want to do that they need to go play creative. Survival is about rewards for hard work, skill, and talent.

You are incorrect about your ideals of survival, well I suppose an opinion is always subjective, but i urge you to visit other servers and have a peek. At it's heart Minecraft is a creativity sandbox, SMP like Single Player Mode, is first and foremost about doing what you can, with what you can get with an added element of danger involved. (See: "Woohoo check out my awesome castle I hand built with stuff I dig up single handedly... OH NO A CREEPER! *BOOM* Aww man...")

Doom, why is that ability and distinction a bad thing? As a Reverend it is my firm opinion that in this day and age people are getting too used to being handed things and need a severe reality check because life isn't like that. Why so adamant against protection? Let's look at this in parallel with a real life example. Say you buy a farm, it's your land, your property you bought it. Through hard work and blood sweat and tears you tracked down this plot of land and settled it. Over the course of time you improved it, made it better, added a well, built a house, planted an orchard. Later you discover there's oil on your property. Should some other guy be able to burrow under your farm through the strata and take your oil? I mean after all you just bought the land you saw on the top. Should people be allowed to come and camp in your fields whenever they want? Wouldn't you put up at least a fence on your boarders, if only to keep your livestock from escaping?

As far as donations, I'm not saying the current set-up is bad. I'm just saying when people are given a choice you'd be surprised at how many will opt to choose.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 26, 2011, 12:22:54 PM
Zoning itself is not that bad of an idea, i can just see every guest wanting a zone and the map being filled with reserved spots.

Yes but Nick, if you saw, I mentioned earlier players don't have to request an op or any other staff to set up this type of protection, they do it them self. If you are called about it it will only be because they don't understand how to do it, not because they need you to do it for them.
You see the map filled with reserved spots now, they have houses on top of them. Same thing, and as I mentioned the zones are set size wise by the Host.

Quote from: D00MKNlGHT on September 26, 2011, 12:41:37 PM
Lemme make it simpler. If someone use prem money to buy a diamond where will the diamond come from? It's unlikely optical will go mine a diamond and give it to that guy. So I guess the plugin will "create" the diamond. So hence the total amount of diamond in total will increase and hence reduce the value of diamond.
And secondly do u reserve space in a survival server?-.- what happens if we go exploring and it becomes dark. The area is reserved and we can't make a bunker to get through the night. I mean seriously do u reserve space in single player survival mode? If u don't and u can survive y do u need to reserve in smp? If u are worried about griefers than what are operators for? As I see nick is doing a great job. So I feel there's no need to reserve space.

The diamond comes from a chest in the seller's home. It may be unlikely optical would go mine a diamond just to give it away, but he might sell any extra ones he dug up. The plugin creates nothing except a means for players to trade items for currency, and vice versa.

Yes I do reserve space in a survival server, it's called my home/base. it's usually a large building or a building with a fence around the surrounding land. If the protected area isn't marked via fence the guy who owns it either just set it up, or is a jerk. And yes I do reserve space in a single player, again it's called my home/base. I return to it regularly, I have a bed there, my storage, it's well lit, and a safe place to spend the nights.

Operators are not there only to prevent griefing, in my experience they are there to resolve any issues that arise on the server. Nick is doing a great job, but he's not there 24/7 either, this will make Nick's job easier.

Quote from: Muhnator on September 26, 2011, 01:43:24 PM
I totally agree.

Im aware that this is a smp server, but come on, how hard is it to build a shed and survive mobs and lava ? game beaten in 5 min....

Opti has allready taken the steps towards protection, since i do belive he has alot of focus on building. Creepers dont blow up things, enderman dosent move blocks around.. Protection is the next step, and we need it.  (Nick are you worried of not having anything to do as op ?, cuz its the only motivation i can spot behind your lack of intrest for protection)

All i can say is from a builders perspective, no protection sucks.. I love to make big "playgrounds" for ppl to have fun in, but atm id rather hide since getting my stuff griefed drives me nuts.

Im a huge fan of opticraft, i have a great deal of respect for opti,and most the staff, but to be honest. If protection isnt implemented at some point, this just isnt the server for me.

The only hard thing to do in beta is building. I honestly cant see any challenge in surviving on its own. I dont want to play creative, cuz this again is way to easy. "surviving" while gathering mats for mega structures, thats fun.

Muhnator

We're agreed on the SMP experience. Building with danger added and limited resources is not just fun it's super fun. On a server without an economy what do I do when I run out of diamond? On a server with an economy I see if anybody has extra they want to sell benefiting us both in our adventures in building. In my opinion this game is a simulation of what I must have been like to settle the United States around 1776.

Quote from: clawstrider on September 26, 2011, 02:30:44 PM
I can see your point, and it is valid.
I have joint questions for you.
1. If nothing bad is happening anymore, what is the problem?
2. Think about void to bedrock protection. Imagine you are mining, not griefing. You mine, and mine. No diamonds (I know this is not valid for you, as you have 100s) but finally you come across one. You mine it. You can't, its protected, as it is 70 layers under some protected place. How would you feel?

1. Even if nothing bad is happening now what happens when the server goes public and a flood of people join? A reactive stance is a sure way to loose any battle, being proactive and trying to prepare for an emergency is usually a better solution.
2. Whenever this happened to me on multiple servers I thought to myself "Aww dang I hit somebode Else's land, that diamond is theirs lucky dog... I should build a wall here so they know they have a neighbor and mine in a different direction." Then i usually went to the surface to check out their house.

Quote from: D00MKNlGHT on September 26, 2011, 03:20:43 PM
I have no idea what u all r talking abt. But my main thing is that if u want to build super builds and are lazy to search for admin when it gets griefed. U should built on classic instead.as this is not a building server, it's a survival server :3

That is counterpoint to the design of the game actually, and why waste the time to bother an admin when I can protect it myself if given the proper tools. If i have to call somebody for protection it's a waste of my time and the staff member's time. Time i could better spend building and mining, and time he can better spend doing the same or enriching the community.

Quote from: D00MKNlGHT on September 26, 2011, 03:43:50 PM
Reserving a area is like zoning out the spawn. Many players already find it annoying to be able to see iron ore in the spawn and yet not able to mine it. So if a few muhnator sized mines and build is zoned, it will take a day of walking before getting out of the spawn. And it will seem like u own majority of the land in opticraft which = to alot of ores stones etc. Just because of ur building on land.

The players that find spawn protection and such annoying are the kind that do not respect public and private property, and you do not want them on the server anyway, trust me, they are a constant source of both community drama and griefing. Muh's mine might be on the large side but that doesn't mean the settings optical put in place would allow him to claim the entire space he has now. I regularly on a new server walk out from spawn more than one day anyway to find a nice secluded spot to avoid griefing anyway, those that do not are either bold, staff, or lazy. When buying a home later in life don't you plan on looking around for the perfect place?

Quote from: optical on September 26, 2011, 09:01:34 PM
Thank your Devil, Muhn.

Now, about protections.

I am all for protections - within reason.
a 256x256x128 protection (assuming Z is the height axis), is too large in my opinion. The way i envision them being acquired and used is such that you will have to purchase them from a shop using a currency. This will take some time to earn, and you'll get a smaller area. Something like 96x96x128 or 64x64x128. You can then place multiple blocks to protect your area side by side. The key here is that it will be hard to get enough $$ to purchase these protection blocks, such that only those who have been building for some time can afford them. I would also advise that they only get used outside the spawn area, but i am unsure on how that could be enforced.

Anyhow - this is a while off. We first need the new map, an economy/shop system in place, and some other backend things - the new dedicated server, vote rewards, donation rewards and such, before protections will be a major priority.

No worries Optical it's what I do. Knowledge should be freely available.

Size it how you like Optical, the system is completely flexible, but I implore you keep the sky to bedrock setting. My suggestion is hop in game and path out a footprint, when you feel it's of the appropriate size for a protected base/home use that as your setting, and keep in mind each rank can have it's own setting.
You are correct sir, it does take a while to protect everything using the currency, but that's part of the fun, playing buying and selling until your home is protected, also a reason why the 5% isn't as bad as you think it is. Money goes fast with the active players, and you'll find the more active and helpful ones never abuse the money and are some of the biggest and best community players. you can also buy and sell(or give away) these protected homes.
As far as outside spawn only, that's simple as host you have unlimited permissions. Protect spawn for free as far as placing and destroying with whatever permissions you desire, then walk away after you get it set. it won't effect your normal playing at all.
I think protections should be a big priority before the server goes public, when you get a flow of new players you'll find a lot of griefing. That won't settle down for a while. Also for the record don't expect me to vote I dislike vote systems as being a tech I do not trust websites I do not know.

Quote from: D00MKNlGHT on September 27, 2011, 12:47:52 AM
Just asking is there a need to zone till bedrock? I mean some ppl build alot of hOuses and only have one mine, so if it's only the house won't it be better to just zone of lesser, as in not to bed rock? I hope this zoning will implement only after 1.9 comes out。
And finally a qns for muh, did ur builds in classic get zoned to prevent greif?and FYI I use /home iam4ever and it was HER who ask me build my damn house beside hers. I wasn't even thinking of building so damn far away in the first place, all my builds are near the spawn, and as far as I know only the farms got griefed none of my other builds have been. So if u don't want to get grief, ask nick to fly to a super far area and then set ur home there. And do u think u are so popular that every guest will teleport to your home?

Oh yes there is absolutely a need to zone to bedrock. I have built extensive homes with mines and underground structures, as well as biodomes underwater(check out my treefarm, then realize i also build mob grinders, animal spawns, wheat and sugar, as well as cactus and mushroom farms, the only way I can do this is by digging deep. I've had some of these structures tunneled into and griefed before. Just because you dig into somebody's wheat field and all the wheat is ripe does not mean it is yours for the taking... :-( I put a lot of hard work and effort into building that, which i sell to the community as cakes and bread and wheat and seeds for a reasonable price. And I use those profits to protect my lands and buy iron which I may have completely mined out of my own mines.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 27, 2011, 01:00:44 AM
I'm not exactly sure about zoning to bedrock.On one side people make great mines that should protected, but on the other side, zoning to bedrock is basically reserving blocks that you didnt make. I just dont think that just because u made a house above ground, you are entitled to all the ores below it. You are basically reserving resources for yourself.

This goes back to the real life real estate thing. Did you make any of the soil or under the topsoil on your own house? But you still own it right? What's the difference between there and in game? I'm not an unreasonable guy when it comes to my homes in minecraft. When I'm online I invite people over, I teach them things, I farm items, I build decent structures, and I sell surplus things at reasonable prices. but when I'm not playing i like to know my lands are safe, from the bedrock (where the grinders usually are) to the sky (usually an observation deck).

Man that's a huge post, but you guys set this topic on fire today while I was gone. LOL

   lemme give a very simple example. assuming 1.9 comes out, u are the first person in the server and u built huge buildings all around the spawn. then u ask opticalz or an admin to zone the whole area cause u built in it. now all the other players will have to walk past the spawn, then walk past ur giant builds, then find a space that have not been zone.
   There is a high possibility that some people may randomly build castles around the spawn, but not dig underneath. and then they will ask the entire area to be zone, hence claiming huge chunks. I m not really against reserving, but with reserving are you trying to tell other people that if you didn't zone out your land, getting grief is your own fault?
    Simplest suggestion limit the amount of reservation for players, also limit the size of reservation. If the players build outside their reserve then it is at their own risk.

Quote from: optical on September 27, 2011, 03:35:51 AM
If you don't reserve to bedrock, you cannot have a basement or anything below ground. If you can suggest something more adequate, feel free to.

Its perfectly reasonable to zone to the lowest part of the basements. I don't know many basements that go to bedrock

Quote from: optical on September 27, 2011, 03:35:51 AM
If you don't reserve to bedrock, you cannot have a basement or anything below ground. If you can suggest something more adequate, feel free to.

Is there no way to reserve like 20 blocks underground? Plus, if the first level is zoned they shouldn't be able to get into the basement anyways unless they tunnel in which is quite a bit of work to just grief.

Quote from: D00MKNlGHT on September 27, 2011, 05:10:18 AM
   lemme give a very simple example. assuming 1.9 comes out, u are the first person in the server and u built huge buildings all around the spawn. then u ask opticalz or an admin to zone the whole area cause u built in it. now all the other players will have to walk past the spawn, then walk past ur giant builds, then find a space that have not been zone.
    There is a high possibility that some people may randomly build castles around the spawn, but not dig underneath. and then they will ask the entire area to be zone, hence claiming huge chunks. I m not really against reserving, but with reserving are you trying to tell other people that if you didn't zone out your land, getting grief is your own fault?
     Simplest suggestion limit the amount of reservation for players, also limit the size of reservation. If the players build outside their reserve then it is at their own risk.

The first step there is incorrect, the player uses a wooden axe to create the bounding box. Then uses /commands to create their own residence. Each block costs a certain amount of credits to protect. Each player has a limit to how large the bounding box van be. If either of these values are exceeded the residence is not created. You last sentence is on track with exactly what we are talking about.

Quote from: clawstrider on September 27, 2011, 08:23:56 AM

Quote from: optical on September 27, 2011, 03:35:51 AM
If you don't reserve to bedrock, you cannot have a basement or anything below ground. If you can suggest something more adequate, feel free to.

Its perfectly reasonable to zone to the lowest part of the basements. I don't know many basements that go to bedrock

You've never seen my basements on an SMP server. Or many other people's either.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 27, 2011, 12:18:39 PM

Quote from: optical on September 27, 2011, 03:35:51 AM
If you don't reserve to bedrock, you cannot have a basement or anything below ground. If you can suggest something more adequate, feel free to.

Is there no way to reserve like 20 blocks underground? Plus, if the first level is zoned they shouldn't be able to get into the basement anyways unless they tunnel in which is quite a bit of work to just grief.

Yes, there is, but I will not be giving any of the commands here just yet.
That's exactly what we're talking about, it has happened to me personally, more than once, not to grief my home but to mine every possible mineral underneath it.


Also just for the record I just had a player on this very bets server randomly pop into my house like it was nothing special and proceed to run down my mineshaft where I was like he owned the joint. I was none too pleased as he never even bothered to ask. this is exactly the kind of thing residence prevents. I blocked him into a corner, asked him what he was doing in my home, to which he replied "spawning" (whatever that meant) and I seriously contemplated dumping him into the lake of lava under our feet Spleef style. Instead I asked him to leave and informed him the next time he wanted to visit somebody's house it would be polite to ask them first. Next time I might not be so nice.

**Side note for a PVP arena a spleef arena might be just the ticket. Now you're having fun with science... and lava! *dig dig dig dig*

Thank you Opti for understanding my conserns

And Thank you Devil for having the typing skill i so obviusly lack.

Im gona try 1 last time to make my point in this tread, since i honestly feel a bit silly posting here, when there are ppl (Devil) that put so mutch more efford into it, and obviusly has alot more knowledge then me..

The  things that allow a person to make great stuff in beta is his mine. Both building materials, and ores comes from this mine. Ive done the huge mistake (in heinsight) to invite struggeling ppl into my mine, to give em an idea of how to make a proffitable mine.
Few has listend (Turtle you fecking rock now, and im happy to se you pwn the game), but ive caught other just breaking into my mine when im not looking.. (not gona go there again, since they spam this tread with useless comments)

I said in a small discussion we had on the server last night "i care less about my buildings then my mine" ppl, did not understand this comment..
My mine is what allows me to build what i do.. If my mine is compomised, my entire game is compromised.. And this is why i belive protection should go to the bedrock. Its not like the materials in the protected zone mines itself, i still have to got down and spend the time mining it.

The reason for the intrest in my mine is so big, is that i leave alot of ore behind (for a rainy day). Further more, i make test tunnels, were i leave all ores hanging in the tunnel, to get an idea of were in the ground im at.(yes there are pattens that make sence)

I invited the wrong ppl, and now i pay the price for it...

Beta is wast.. Most comments in here concerning problems about mining and running into other ppl's protected zones, are not thought tru, and imo is ppl that are fighting to keep the window open for exploiting..

It's up to the player , to find a spot that can be protected without interfeering with other ppl. This is why i traveld far far away from the spawn when i first joined the server. I knew i would take up a wast amount of space, an in respect of other playes i traveld to the border..
(Dont you think that i would like to have my HQ right next to the spawn, so that everyone that joins would see it ?. This is why i build, it feeds my ego, and im honest about it)

But i allways put respect of other ppl b4 that, and thats the reason my settlement is far from anything that was built when i first joined. (now its getting crowded)

Im only posting and suggesting to make what is imo the best way to run beta. Ive tried many other beta servers, and protection works fine, its only ppl that havent tried it, that still doubdt it (or ppl that want to be able to exploit, since they know it kills any form of grief or exploit permanently)

Im sorry about my sometimes rage'ish comments, but it makes me boil inside to see ppl that ive caught griefing, trying to trow this epic tread of balance, just to make sure they can exploit, and not even putting any efford into their comments.

English is my 3. language, and posting like this takes me ages, but i do it for Opticraft,  and in the end, the entire comunity and myself.

Muhnator

Well I stated my opinion and i am not going to argue it any further. Whatever optical decides i support.