Opticraft Community

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 12:55:02 PM

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 12:33:29 PM

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 11:26:58 AM
(PS,  is that the same Dinnerbone that screwed us all by promising he would update Bukkit to 1.8 but never did?)

No, it's the Dinnerbone that said he would update Bukkit, but was then legally not allowed to due to someone else screwing the community over. Gah.. please learn what actually happened, you described like 10% of the story here.

I know exactly what happened, I read all about it. Point is; Dinnerbone should not make promises he cannot keep.
And the other guy you claim screwed the community got screwed himself by Mojang. I completely understand his actions. He's the victim, not the bad guy. He worked his ass off for years for all of us and got screwed by Mojang and also by Dinnerbone.

But lets not get off topic.

You're so wrong it hurts. This was in no way Mojang's fault at all. The whole Bukkit staff had a hissy fit because they allegedly had no idea they were working for Mojang after 2 years, and that's apparently Mojang's fault for not telling them individually. The Bukkit community wanted a system where they could be in charge of everything, yet they then turned around and complained that Mojang had been sitting behind the scenes doing nothing for 2 years.

Wolverness, the one we're speaking about, thought that his code he had written voluntarily for Bukkit over many years was all of a sudden in a breach of his copyright because of Mojang's ownership of Bukkit, which has been there since 2012.

I have no sympathy for Wolverness, he's doing what he's doing just because he can, and until he can reveal his motives for this, he will forever be seen as the bad guy.

Go ahead and keep seeing him as the victim, but please then don't be one of those people who can't sleep at night because their beloved server hasn't been able to update to the latest patch because of legal issues.

Everyone is trying to get somewhere in this world. His motives are crystal clear. The Bukkit ppl thought they were working on their own future.
You forget this is a money issue. Mojang making TONS of money, and having ppl (Wolverness among many others, who all quit too) working for them without paying them, even without them knowing it. Indeed, I don't blame the guy at all for expecting something in return after they found out. It's not like Mojang couldn't afford it. Instead they said "screw you" and then he decided to stop the project. He always thought his code would be worth a lot but Mojang just tried to confiscate it. Dinnerbone then promised he would finish it which he never did. That's why we have Spigot now instead of Bukkit.
Ppl need to understand that Mojang would never be the company they are now without the work of the Bukkit ppl.
Mojang could have shown the Bukkit guys some god damn financial appreciation!
Instead the Bukkit ppl got screwed and Mojang was sold for 2.5 billion dollars.
It's a damn shame Wolverness wasn't able to sue them for an enormous amount of money.

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 03:37:00 PM

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 12:55:02 PM

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 12:33:29 PM

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 11:26:58 AM
(PS,  is that the same Dinnerbone that screwed us all by promising he would update Bukkit to 1.8 but never did?)

No, it's the Dinnerbone that said he would update Bukkit, but was then legally not allowed to due to someone else screwing the community over. Gah.. please learn what actually happened, you described like 10% of the story here.

I know exactly what happened, I read all about it. Point is; Dinnerbone should not make promises he cannot keep.
And the other guy you claim screwed the community got screwed himself by Mojang. I completely understand his actions. He's the victim, not the bad guy. He worked his ass off for years for all of us and got screwed by Mojang and also by Dinnerbone.

But lets not get off topic.

You're so wrong it hurts. This was in no way Mojang's fault at all. The whole Bukkit staff had a hissy fit because they allegedly had no idea they were working for Mojang after 2 years, and that's apparently Mojang's fault for not telling them individually. The Bukkit community wanted a system where they could be in charge of everything, yet they then turned around and complained that Mojang had been sitting behind the scenes doing nothing for 2 years.

Wolverness, the one we're speaking about, thought that his code he had written voluntarily for Bukkit over many years was all of a sudden in a breach of his copyright because of Mojang's ownership of Bukkit, which has been there since 2012.

I have no sympathy for Wolverness, he's doing what he's doing just because he can, and until he can reveal his motives for this, he will forever be seen as the bad guy.

Go ahead and keep seeing him as the victim, but please then don't be one of those people who can't sleep at night because their beloved server hasn't been able to update to the latest patch because of legal issues.

Everyone is trying to get somewhere in this world. His motives are crystal clear. The Bukkit ppl thought they were working on their own future.
You forget this is a money issue. Mojang making TONS of money, and having ppl (Wolverness among many others, who all quit too) working for them without paying them, even without them knowing it. Indeed, I don't blame the guy at all for expecting something in return after they found out. It's not like Mojang couldn't afford it. Instead they said "screw you" and then he decided to stop the project. He always thought his code would be worth a lot but Mojang just tried to confiscate it. Dinnerbone then promised he would finish it which he never did. That's why we have Spigot now instead of Bukkit.
Ppl need to understand that Mojang would never be the company they are now without the work of the Bukkit ppl.
Mojang could have shown the Bukkit guys some god damn financial appreciation!
Instead the Bukkit ppl got screwed and Mojang was sold for 2.5 billion dollars.
It's a damn shame Wolverness wasn't able to sue them for an enormous amount of money.

you realize that even if they weren't working for mojang, they still wouldn't have gotten paid right? the way I see it, he was just a baby that decided after the fact that he should have gotten paid for a project he VOLUNTEERED for Just because mojang made money.

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 03:37:00 PM
Everyone is trying to get somewhere in this world. His motives are crystal clear. The Bukkit ppl thought they were working on their own future.

They were all knowingly voluntarily contributing to a project for free. Hell, even the Moderators of the site resigned with the same excuse. Do you think the Moderators were building their career as Moderators? I don't think so, I think it was just a petty excuse to make people feel sorry for them. What they did was a hobby, and asking money for that at anytime is just wrong.

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 03:37:00 PM
You forget this is a money issue. Mojang making TONS of money, and having ppl (Wolverness among many others, who all quit too) working for them without paying them, even without them knowing it. Indeed, I don't blame the guy at all for expecting something in return after they found out. It's not like Mojang couldn't afford it. Instead they said "screw you" and then he decided to stop the project. He always thought his code would be worth a lot but Mojang just tried to confiscate it.

Whether it was a money issue or whether they were just claiming entitlement to money for what they did are 2 different things. Again, this wasn't a money issue because they were all contributing to a project as a hobby. As far as I know, there was nothing in any contract saying they'd ever be paid for doing anything, if there was, there would be a whole new issue here.

As soon as Mojang was thrown into the picture, they all felt that they were somehow entitled to extra resources and rewards. Again you blame Mojang for being the cause of the whole entire staff not knowing about Mojang's ownership over the project, yet I happen to recall EvilSeph being the Bukkit lead at the time, so you don't think maybe he should have been the one to sit them all down and say, "hey guys, Mojang own us now".

You also claim that they somehow "confiscated" his code, again not true at all. Bukkit at that time owned the project after EvilSeph's resignation, that is all. If anything that is EvilSeph's fault for not thinking that one through.

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 03:37:00 PM
Dinnerbone then promised he would finish it which he never did. That's why we have Spigot now instead of Bukkit.

Wrong again. Are you sure you did your research? It went something like this:
1. EvilSeph decides for whatever reason (he said DMCA issues, which turned out to be a lie) he wanted to shut down Bukkit.
2. Mojang said hell no (and actually saved the project for the time being)
3. Dinnerbone said he'd update Bukkit
4. Majority, if not all Bukkit staff resign
5. Wolverness filed a DMCA takedown request
6. Bukkit were required to hold the project
7. The Bukkit forums were put under the control of the Curse team
8. md_5 and the Spigot team released 1.8 for Spigot and Bukkit

That is what leaded to the creation of 1.8 Spigot and Bukkit, not Dinnerbone. He literally has nothing to do with that.

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 03:37:00 PM
Ppl need to understand that Mojang would never be the company they are now without the work of the Bukkit ppl.
Mojang could have shown the Bukkit guys some god damn financial appreciation!
Instead the Bukkit ppl got screwed and Mojang was sold for 2.5 billion dollars.
It's a damn shame Wolverness wasn't able to sue them for an enormous amount of money.

Pretty much covered all of this nonsense, please refer to the above paragraphs.

Quote from: Nick3306 on February 09, 2015, 03:57:15 PM
you realize that even if they weren't working for mojang, they still wouldn't have gotten paid right? the way I see it, he was just a baby that decided after the fact that he should have gotten paid for a project he VOLUNTEERED for Just because mojang made money.

Indeed, although I wouldn't call him a baby, more something like; extremely naive. Not knowing he was working for Mojang, thinking everything he wrote was his own...

The immature behaviour would come from Mojang, although filthy rich, being unwilling to pay for the important work the Bukkit team did. Mojang truly exploited the situation, not very commendable of them at all.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
They were all knowingly voluntarily contributing to a project for free. Hell, even the Moderators of the site resigned with the same excuse. Do you think the Moderators were building their career as Moderators? I don't think so, I think it was just a petty excuse to make people feel sorry for them. What they did was a hobby, and asking money for that at anytime is just wrong.

That's just your opinion, I have a different one.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
Whether it was a money issue or whether they were just claiming entitlement to money for what they did are 2 different things. Again, this wasn't a money issue because they were all contributing to a project as a hobby. As far as I know, there was nothing in any contract saying they'd ever be paid for doing anything, if there was, there would be a whole new issue here.

As long as they didn't know they were working for free for a filthy rich company, yes it was a hobby. The moment they found out though, it was a whole different matter. If I was as stupid as they were, to find out I had been working for a filthy rich company for several years for free, I'd expect some compensation too.

But again, that's just my opinion, you clearly have a different one.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
As soon as Mojang was thrown into the picture, they all felt that they were somehow entitled to extra resources and rewards. Again you blame Mojang for being the cause of the whole entire staff not knowing about Mojang's ownership over the project, yet I happen to recall EvilSeph being the Bukkit lead at the time, so you don't think maybe he should have been the one to sit them all down and say, "hey guys, Mojang own us now".

I think they were extremely naive but nontheless Mojang could have easily compensated them for their efforts. It would have been a nice gesture to say the least. It would have made such a huge difference.

Of course I blame Mojang for knowingly exploiting these guys.
Yes, they should have known better, but still.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
You also claim that they somehow "confiscated" his code, again not true at all. Bukkit at that time owned the project after EvilSeph's resignation, that is all. If anything that is EvilSeph's fault for not thinking that one through.

No I didn't say that, I said they tried to do so. They failed. Bukkit was discontinued.
And yes, the Bukkit ppl should have known better.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
Wrong again. Are you sure you did your research? It went something like this:
1. EvilSeph decides for whatever reason (he said DMCA issues, which turned out to be a lie) he wanted to shut down Bukkit.
2. Mojang said hell no (and actually saved the project for the time being)
3. Dinnerbone said he'd update Bukkit
4. Majority, if not all Bukkit staff resign
5. Wolverness filed a DMCA takedown request
6. Bukkit were required to hold the project
7. The Bukkit forums were put under the control of the Curse team
8. md_5 and the Spigot team released 1.8 for Spigot and Bukkit

You conveniently leave out everything that happened before nr 1.
He had a perfectly good reason to shut it down, knowing that a filthy rich Mojang had exploited him and his mates for years. If Mojang had been a bit more mature and less greedy they would have paid them generously and all would still be well.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM
That is what leaded to the creation of 1.8 Spigot and Bukkit, not Dinnerbone. He literally has nothing to do with that.

Exactly my point, Dinnerbone promised something and he didn't do it.

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 04:13:25 PM

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 03:37:00 PM
Ppl need to understand that Mojang would never be the company they are now without the work of the Bukkit ppl.
Mojang could have shown the Bukkit guys some god damn financial appreciation!
Instead the Bukkit ppl got screwed and Mojang was sold for 2.5 billion dollars.
It's a damn shame Wolverness wasn't able to sue them for an enormous amount of money.

Pretty much covered all of this nonsense, please refer to the above paragraphs.

I have a completely different opinion and might as well call yours nonsense, which I pretty much all covered.

Since this is all a matter of opinion, you say it's all their own fault they didn't know and it was voluntary, I say Mojang has exploited the situation while being filthy rich and could have easily solved the problem by being a little bit less asocial, I think we can agree to disagree.

How can you not understand this? If bukkit wasnt owned by mojang, they still wouldn't have gotten Paid. That means bukkit was not exploiting them because they wereworking for free before.

Mojang being a "filthy rich" company doesn't make any difference. They don't have to pay anyone anything, and any genuine person wouldn't request compensation from what was supposed to be volunteer job.

I don't think Mojang took advantage of anything at all. Mojang acquired Bukkit, and in return EvilSeph was hired by them. You'd think such an important thing like this wouldn't be forgotten by him, but instead, everyone from Bukkit claimed to know nothing about this. It was even publicly announced back in 2012.

To say Mojang were taking advantage of Bukkit would be to say Seph, Bukkits leader himself was in on it too. But I sure hope you have an actual person to blame, and that you're not just generalising "Mojang" as the whole company.

No idea why you keep putting some sort of blame on Dinnerbone. He's just 1 out of many devs at the company, and to say he promised to update the software is irrelevant. He said all this when it was feasible. He and everyone else had no idea Wolverness was going to spark the way he did. What did you want Dinnerbone to do? Totally ignore the DMCA and release an update, and just ask Wolverness to let it slide? You're crazy.

Quote from: Nick3306 on February 09, 2015, 06:30:39 PM
How can you not understand this? If bukkit wasnt owned by mojang, they still wouldn't have gotten Paid. That means bukkit was not exploiting them because they wereworking for free before.

I do understand. I said "indeed" about the not have gotten paid part, as in "I agree".

I did however disagree with you about the "baby" part.
Also, I think that Mojang knew very well they had ppl working for them for free doing very important work, while they were making tons of money themselves. Opinions vary on this but I think it can be seen as exploitation. That's all.


To get back on topic, what do you think about the unobtainable sponge? As it should be part of 1.8 could you pls add it to the market?

Cheers

Quote from: xDeeKay on February 09, 2015, 06:34:19 PM
You're crazy.

Pls don't make this personal.
I'm not saying in here what I think about you either.
We just have a difference of opinion on this matter.

ty

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 07:55:19 PM
Also, I think that Mojang knew very well they had ppl working for them for free doing very important work, while they were making tons of money themselves. Opinions vary on this but I think it can be seen as exploitation. That's all.

The fact of the matter is Mojang in no way need to give any money away, of course they are making money - they are a company, why should they have to give it to people working on a project that is voluntary? It's not as important as the vanilla game itself in no way, in fact, over 50% of the players that play are in single player, when you think of the split between different multiplayer services Bukkit accounts way under 50%.

The people of Bukkit do it out of their free time, they are not working for Mojang, they will have either their own job or still be in education. I really don't see what you fail to realize, they are not even volunteers for Mojang, they are volunteers for the Bukkit community. Leaving their own community because Mojang has been there all along, and trying to protect what they have done? Alright.


I said I'd talk to Nick about the new items.

Quote from: Tobs on February 09, 2015, 08:19:15 PM

Quote from: Lando_V on February 09, 2015, 07:55:19 PM
Also, I think that Mojang knew very well they had ppl working for them for free doing very important work, while they were making tons of money themselves. Opinions vary on this but I think it can be seen as exploitation. That's all.

The fact of the matter is Mojang in no way need to give any money away, of course they are making money - they are a company, why should they have to give it to people working on a project that is voluntary? It's not as important as the vanilla game itself in no way, in fact, over 50% of the players that play are in single player, when you think of the split between different multiplayer services Bukkit accounts way under 50%.

The people of Bukkit do it out of their free time, they are not working for Mojang, they will have either their own job or still be in education. I really don't see what you fail to realize, they are not even volunteers for Mojang, they are volunteers for the Bukkit community. Leaving their own community because Mojang has been there all along, and trying to protect what they have done? Alright.


I said I'd talk to Nick about the new items.

I think neither Mojang nor the volunteers did anything illegal so we cannot blame them for that. This is purely ethical and both sides have things against them there. I'm not very much in favor of capitalism because it causes huge differences in wealth. That's why I have the opinion I have on this matter and others might have other opinions.

Added to that, if they would have paid them it would have been a win win situation. They didn't, so everybody suffered. The volunteers, Mojang and the community. (Mojang the least of all of course.) Was not paying them the best solution? I don't think so. Did they have to pay them? Of course not.




When Nick replied I though it was a good moment to ask about the sponge. I didn't mean to ignore you in any way or form.
Thank you for talking to him.

Adding prismarine to the market would be cool, being able to sell it would be nice, but I think you would end up having people making large farms again.  You can actually farm the new mobs extremely quickly with the proper setup. (Probably a con, depending on how you look at it)

I've added the following to the market...

BUY:
64 Prismarine Shards ($3,000)
64 Prismarine Crystals ($3,000)
8 Sponge ($2,000)

SELL:
32 Prisemarine ($250)
32 Prismarine Bricks ($250)
32 Dark Prismarine ($250)

Thanks you!

Quote from: Tobs on February 12, 2015, 11:00:27 PM
SELL:
32 Prisemarine ($250)
32 Prismarine Bricks ($250)
32 Dark Prismarine ($250)

You might end up regretting this

Quote from: gavin on February 13, 2015, 11:42:57 PM

Quote from: Tobs on February 12, 2015, 11:00:27 PM
SELL:
32 Prisemarine ($250)
32 Prismarine Bricks ($250)
32 Dark Prismarine ($250)

You might end up regretting this

How so?

it takes 9shards to make a prismarine brick.  9 x 3000 = 27,000 for 1 stack and can only sell that stack for 500?

and can't buy just the blocks themselves?