Opticraft Community

Quote from: VoreReznor on September 10, 2013, 06:04:53 PM
Maybe now would be a time to take a look at adding a new mod to the server that will create player run markets...  I know this has been talked about lots in the past but maybe its an option now.

the problem with that is that the chest/sign shops (i think you are talking about those) would be spammed everywhere. a better solution would be to create a special area where you can buy some land to build a shop, but that would require coding, and at the moment we dont have a dev.

Quote from: VoreReznor on September 10, 2013, 06:04:53 PM
Maybe now would be a time to take a look at adding a new mod to the server that will create player run markets...  I know this has been talked about lots in the past but maybe its an option now.

This could be abused, selling things at high prices etc

Quote from: zwaan111 on September 10, 2013, 06:36:35 PM

Quote from: VoreReznor on September 10, 2013, 06:04:53 PM
Maybe now would be a time to take a look at adding a new mod to the server that will create player run markets...  I know this has been talked about lots in the past but maybe its an option now.

the problem with that is that the chest/sign shops (i think you are talking about those) would be spammed everywhere. a better solution would be to create a special area where you can buy some land to build a shop, but that would require coding, and at the moment we dont have a dev.

That would be ideal, if we can find a way to do it.

Having to advertise in the trade channel is quite cumbersome.

it isnt infinite work to get infinite money. it is infinite time. I would say i can make 15k in an hour from mining on an average trip.  a really good gold farm will make you upwards of 50k (or even 100k from some peoples farms) an hour.
now getting money from mining is fine and dandy, you are working to make that 15k. afking and making 50k+ an hour after building a farm that did not take all that long to make (nether farm) is a bit cheap. say you mine for 24 hours and average 15k per hour, you would get 360000 in a day. afking at a 50k per hour gold farm for a day would be 1.2 million dollars in 24 hours. being able to make 1 5th the wealth of the richest server member in 24 hours as opposed to 360k per day is definitely skewed. if you have made an efficient gold or iron farm (or both like myself) thenyou can use them to craft items like in vanilla minecraft. i dont see the big deal you can still "survive" and play no problem, just with an infinite amount of gold and iron. if the market pisses you off that much, just dont use it. or mine for the very cheap protection stones. 750$ for a coal ore ps. that is only 30 ironingots sold to market (unsmelted). just my rant, stop bitching ive put as much time and money into farms as anyone and im fine with this decision.

just stock up on a lot of iron and gold and make a house or something

Quote from: __gavin on September 10, 2013, 09:08:54 PM
it isnt infinite work to get infinite money. it is infinite time. I would say i can make 15k in an hour from mining on an average trip.  a really good gold farm will make you upwards of 50k (or even 100k from some peoples farms) an hour.
now getting money from mining is fine and dandy, you are working to make that 15k. afking and making 50k+ an hour after building a farm that did not take all that long to make (nether farm) is a bit cheap. say you mine for 24 hours and average 15k per hour, you would get 360000 in a day. afking at a 50k per hour gold farm for a day would be 1.2 million dollars in 24 hours. being able to make 1 5th the wealth of the richest server member in 24 hours as opposed to 360k per day is definitely skewed. if you have made an efficient gold or iron farm (or both like myself) thenyou can use them to craft items like in vanilla minecraft. i dont see the big deal you can still "survive" and play no problem, just with an infinite amount of gold and iron. if the market pisses you off that much, just dont use it. or mine for the very cheap protection stones. 750$ for a coal ore ps. that is only 30 ironingots sold to market (unsmelted). just my rant, stop bitching ive put as much time and money into farms as anyone and im fine with this decision.

just stock up on a lot of iron and gold and make a house or something

Good point iron man
Also I don't see the point of trying to be "rich" on the server.  And some people decided to leave because they can't get rich anymore...Minecraft isn't for that purpose.  What will you do with all that money? Use it to brag and show off?  I know you can use it to buy items/builds, but they are not that expensive just to save up 400k in afk farm money for

Quote from: OzzyKP on September 10, 2013, 07:50:00 PM

Quote from: zwaan111 on September 10, 2013, 06:36:35 PM

Quote from: VoreReznor on September 10, 2013, 06:04:53 PM
Maybe now would be a time to take a look at adding a new mod to the server that will create player run markets...  I know this has been talked about lots in the past but maybe its an option now.

the problem with that is that the chest/sign shops (i think you are talking about those) would be spammed everywhere. a better solution would be to create a special area where you can buy some land to build a shop, but that would require coding, and at the moment we dont have a dev.

That would be ideal, if we can find a way to do it.

Having to advertise in the trade channel is quite cumbersome.

Having a way for players to create shops would be amazing on this sort of a server. One of the biggest attractions to this server is the economy. The iron and gold farms are not good for that economy so lets set that aside. The economy is an amazing part of Opticraft though, as well as the markets.

It is true that allowing players to run sign shops could become problematic, however there are solutions to those problems. The idea of defined locations is one great idea. Others that come to mind is limiting the amount of shops per player (shops = signs). Further more requiring that players log on regularly or the shops will be invalidated and the signs removed; therefore preventing thousands of abandoned shops. The opportunity to build amazing attractive structures to entice people to shop at  your store would be further beneficial to the server both aesthetically and socially.

As to the dev problem, there are several players capable of coding/configuring something like this, myself included.

Opticraft's original purpose was never to make people get rich on the get-go. Sure, making money was an idea or a goal for a number of people that joined, but that was not the original intention of the server. It was created to give people a survival server to play on, in addition to a Classic-Creative server-- an option, so to speak.

I have not built one single mega-farm in my entire time on Opticraft, and I am not cringing on my knees on this news. The reason? I did not join this server for money-- I joined it for the community. I had slowly backed away for a while mainly because more people had become very engrossedly interested in making more and more money on the server that they became distracted from the community. When major changes had occurred in the past, they had over-reacted in some form to the change (as seen in this thread), simply because they were more focused on that one goal. I did not want to take part of that bandwagon, and I still have no intention of doing so.

This should serve as more of a wake-up call than a solid barrier for most. This was, and still is, a Survival Server for a reason-- to take the Single-Player qualities and apply them to a Multi-Player setting.

Please do not make money the only thing on your mind when playing on servers. The reason why they even exist in the first place is because of the community. New players that join the server are not expected to create a farm right off the bat just to make money. They are only expected to play the way they want to. If they want to figure out their own way of making money, that's fine. Their only expectation should be to enjoy the server the way how it was originally meant to be.

First of all, no offence meant in any way to anyone! We all have our opinions.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 08, 2013, 02:54:53 PM

I will be removing the ability to sell iron and gold ingots to the market next sunday.

This decision wasn't made lightly and an overwhelming majority of our staff agrees with it.

This should be a player decision, not a staff one. It's the players that keep this server alive, without them this server would be dead. Without staff there would still be a lot of players. (Not that I would prefer a server without staff.)
The majority must decide.

Quote from: Tobs on September 08, 2013, 03:32:18 PM

I think you've missed the point of Minecraft here....

I'm very sorry to say it but I think YOU missed the point of minecraft. Minecraft isn't about trade, it's about gathering materials and building stuff with it. That includes farms. If a market has been added to the world and a supposed "economy" exists then why can't ppl sell their profits from farms to it? If anything is wrong with this survival server then it's the availability of a market/economy. That wasn't part of Minecraft in the first place.

Quote from: xDeeKay on September 08, 2013, 03:40:44 PM

Then what are you doing on a survival server?

What the hell is a market and a monetary system doing on a survival server?

Quote from: xDeeKay on September 08, 2013, 04:47:03 PM
You say that like there's absolutely no other way to earn money. Taking away the ability to sell iron and gold hasn't physically had any impact on any farm, you can still use them for other things, you'll simply need to find other means of earning money.

There wouldn't be a way available to make money at a rate that lets ppl compete at /baltop. If you remove iron and gold and you want to keep it fair you should wipe /baltop too and let everyone start over. Because there is no way ppl can get up to 5.5mill without ironfarms or goldfarms.
/baltop, which is an important minigame for many players, would become a waste of time and completely obsolete.

Quote from: daniblue182 on September 08, 2013, 05:06:16 PM

...you can still sell it to other players...

Not the amounts that farms can provide. Players simply don't have the money to buy it.

Quote from: FNVcourierjon on September 08, 2013, 05:43:25 PM

Who plays Opticraft just to get rich? 

And people there are other ways to get money...get over it

Many players do!
Just to be clear on this, I built many farms and I could be rich...but I never sold anything on the market at all. (Or bought anything either for that matter.)

And no, there are no other ways to get money at a rate that lets players compete at /baltop.

Quote from: DJAlphaWolf on September 08, 2013, 06:54:31 PM
I don't really disagree with this plan but at this stage in the entire Opticraft lifespan, its definitely going to throw a lot of people off. Those who became super rich got lucky enough to be in a time when iron farms were a source of money. While it may be harder after this "update" to make that same amount of money in such a quick amount of time, it doesn't mean making money will be impossible. People still buy enchanted items, you can still sell your items for your own price in your own shop, etc. It's a long overdue update but just like every update that removes automatic farms, people won't be happy.

This can be solved by wiping /baltop.

Quote from: DJAlphaWolf on September 08, 2013, 06:54:31 PM
Offtopic: Let me get this straight though. Whoever is calling us a survival server is wrong. Even if we advertise ourselves as one, we are the loosest definition of a survival server. A true survival server wouldn't have an economy or a market in the first place. People would be mining all day, hiding from mobs, wearing diamond armor when they go out, making sure to sleep in a bed so they don't lose their home, no way to protect their precious builds from griefers and creepers, etc. In many areas, mobs don't spawn as often as they used to but we've managed to sort of bring back some of the mob spawning. When it comes to going home, we just use a simple command to warp there. Sleeping in a bed has completely lost its function in the survival aspect of this server. Plus we use protection stones. While you can still maintain a survival aspect with just protection stones, they're the cherry on the top of all plugins we offer to players to remove that survival feel and make you happy that none of your hard work was griefed. Survival is about the hard work, skills and effort put into the game to SURVIVE from the creatures of the night and your fellow player's griefing. Go ahead and try to make an argument that we still are a survival server but in your mind, you know that which defines a survival server is not what we're all about.

This! ^

Quote from: iGenerator on September 08, 2013, 10:49:51 PM
It might cause people to donate to get in game credits then

And you think that is a good thing?
Entire games have disappeared because people could buy their ingame wealth with real money. There is nothing good about that at all. /homes or disguises ok, but credits.... It ruins the game.
It is the worst scenario I can think of!

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 09, 2013, 12:14:02 AM
I'm actually pretty surprised at the number of regular members that agree with this.

Well....thank you for making a decision like this while expecting a completely different reaction from players.
Btw, I'm not so sure the majority of the players likes this "update" at all.

Quote from: Felix_De_Kat on September 09, 2013, 03:17:04 PM
Not only do they stretch the distance between the "haves" and "have-not's"

You mean of course the distance between the "non-lazy" (those who actually build stuff including big farms) and the "lazy" (those who do not).
Because contrary to real life it is actually possible in Minecraft for EVERYONE to be rich. It's a matter of being lazy or not.

Quote from: Felix_De_Kat on September 09, 2013, 03:17:04 PM
...for very little effort...

For making a good farm it is required to invest a LOT of time and effort!
Your remark is just as ridiculous as saying that building a navy base requires very little effort...
Have you ever tried to fill 27 cells with 4 pods each with at least 4 villagers each? That's 4x4x27=432 villagers minimum. Yes that takes time and effort.
Have you ever tried to mine 13 full double chests of obsidian? THAT's the equivalent of time and effort!

Quote from: Felix_De_Kat on September 09, 2013, 03:17:04 PM
...they take up too much valuable space on the server and you've got to admit, they're pretty damn ugly too.

I have to agree that most farms look damn ugly. It's a shame people don't invest a little bit more time to make them look good. And yes they take a lot of space but valuable? I don't think so. Most valuables have been stripped from the land, there aren't many goodies left to mine. Added to that, there are so many abandoned houses or half finished houses taking "valuable" space. THAT's the ugly stuff!
It would be nice if crap like that would be removed. Or, if there is such a lack of space, why not just add extra land to the maps?

Quote from: Jowenator on September 09, 2013, 04:28:44 PM
you get to know people by exchanging items

You have a great point there and we don't need a monetary system for that! Just trade items for items.

Quote from: Ozzyisleaf on September 10, 2013, 01:47:29 AM
AFKers suck just to be on opticraft to get gold and that's all they'd ever do. But what about the people who actually don't afk and work while their farms are generating resources.

I couldn't agree more. Removing iron/gold from the market doesn't solve afk-ing. And it hurts the people that do not afk but do have big farms.
The non-lazy (those that have huge farms) don't stop building when a farm is done. They build something else while getting money from their farms. Then gold and iron are removed and the lazy people (those that do not have big farms) cheer.

Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on September 10, 2013, 04:47:43 PM
There's no doubt that people such as yourself put a lot of time and money into iron and gold farms.

But the fact of the matter is that no matter how much time or money you put into the farms (or anything that gives you infinite money), it no way justifies you having an infinite resource of money.
If the idea of how hard you work at something (if that's even measurable (hours of work?)) correlates to the amount of money you make, then to justify people having an infinite money source would mean that person would have to put an infinite amount of time and hard work into the farm.

Simply put, you haven't put in infinite work for the infinite money.

Also, you can still sell to others...

During the building of a big farm you don't earn money.
And when the farm is ready the amount of money is not infinite. Even when you spend an infinite (24/7 ? ) amount of time afk-ing (which no one has the time for) a farm produces only a certain amount of items per hour. So "infinite money" does not exist, no matter how big the farm is.

The amount of time and effort that can go into building farms is HUGE! If it takes weeks to build something then you may expect a reasonable amount of time to "collect" afterwards. Added to that, players that build big farms don't stop building. It's not like they will afk from that moment on. People that build stuff like that aren't lazy. So imo as long as they continue to build and play, they can collect from their farms too.

And as I said earlier, trying to sell to others isn't nearly as effective, even with a big price difference. People just won't buy all your stuff.





Again, I don't mean to offend anyone with my opinion.
- I enjoy playing on this server very much!
- I try to help other players, try to teach them how the game works and I still learn stuff myself.
- I don't buy from anyone, I don't sell to anyone, I'm completely selfsupporting (that means mining every block I use myself).
- I think the economy on this server is a joke.
- As long as there is a market, the term "survival" is a joke.
- As the situation is now, if someone would want to get near nr.1 on /baltop, the only proper way to get there is to build farms and sell directly to the market (which I do not do, as mentioned).
- The minigame /baltop, which a lot of people like a lot, will become a joke from the moment iron and gold are removed without wiping /baltop for a new start.


So in short; The best way to deal with the current problem is to remove the market entirely, making this a true survival server. It would solve everything instantly but a lot of people would be very disappointed.
The current solution of removing iron and gold is a terrible solution that doesn't realy solve anything and only causes disappointment among a specific group that deserves to be disappointed the least of all players!
If the afk-ing is a thorn in peoples eyes then we should attack that problem specifically. We must focus on how to solve that instead of using other harsh measures.


Regards,

Lando

Quote from: Lando_V on September 11, 2013, 01:52:54 PM

Quote from: xDeeKay on September 08, 2013, 03:40:44 PM
Then what are you doing on a survival server?

What the hell is a market and a monetary system doing on a survival server?

I don't see a rule book anywhere stating that a Minecraft survival server can't have that.

Quote from: Lando_V on September 11, 2013, 01:52:54 PM

Quote from: xDeeKay on September 08, 2013, 04:47:03 PM
You say that like there's absolutely no other way to earn money. Taking away the ability to sell iron and gold hasn't physically had any impact on any farm, you can still use them for other things, you'll simply need to find other means of earning money.

There wouldn't be a way available to make money at a rate that lets ppl compete at /baltop. If you remove iron and gold and you want to keep it fair you should wipe /baltop too and let everyone start over. Because there is no way ppl can get up to 5.5mill without ironfarms or goldfarms.
/baltop, which is an important minigame for many players, would become a waste of time and completely obsolete.

Check the first page on /baltop. I've never sold any iron or gold from farms to players or the market, so I don't know where you pulled that idea from.

Quote from: xDeeKay on September 11, 2013, 02:14:07 PM
I don't see a rule book anywhere stating that a Minecraft survival server can't have that.

Very funny  , of course there is no rule book. A market hasn't been part of minecraft in the first place. It has been added as a mod to a survival server which is of course ridiculous because it contradicts the whole idea of survival. You could add all kinds of craziness that way and state that there isn't a rule book for it. 

Quote from: xDeeKay on September 11, 2013, 02:14:07 PM
Check the first page on /baltop. I've never sold any iron or gold from farms to players or the market, so I don't know where you pulled that idea from.

I'm not sure what your rank in /baltop is, how much you own, how you got it or how long it has taken you to get there. Maybe you owned an older farm that has been removed? Maybe you've played longer than anyone else? Maybe you were lucky in some other way? One thing is for sure, you're not even close to the 5.5 mill that the nr.1 had when I checked it some time ago. To get there within a certain timeframe you need big farms.
Again, you're not nearly there yet....but care to explain how you made your money? Maybe it could be a help for other players. 

Quote from: Lando_V on September 11, 2013, 01:52:54 PM

First of all, no offence meant in any way to anyone! We all have our opinions.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 08, 2013, 02:54:53 PM

I will be removing the ability to sell iron and gold ingots to the market next sunday.

This decision wasn't made lightly and an overwhelming majority of our staff agrees with it.

This should be a player decision, not a staff one. It's the players that keep this server alive, without them this server would be dead. Without staff there would still be a lot of players. (Not that I would prefer a server without staff.)
The majority must decide.

It doesn't work like that. Of course players will want easy ways to get money, why would they vote down an easy way to get money? If I held a vote right now on whether we should give each player $1000000000 in game money, do you think people would vote it down? No. So we made the decision that we felt was best for the server.

Oh, and having players donate to get money (which they have been able to do for a long time) is good because that money keeps the server running.

I would quote Lando but his post is too long it would take forever to edit.

Hey said a few times that wiping baltop would be a good way to fix this mess.

I completely disagree, that is extremely unfair to those who worked for their money. They put time and money into that. For example, Dropzone1446. He mined for hours and hours and hours, not used golf/iron farms. Fish_Luver, he donated for a lot if his money. I got my money from mining and selling statues. Just because a majority of people have a lot of money because of iron/gold farms doesn't mean everyone should have their balance wiped. Wiping baltop would truly be the end of opticraft.

'Not the amounts that farms can provide. Players simply don't have the money to buy it.'

thats too bad... you lot will find another way to make money sooner or later

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 11, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
It doesn't work like that. Of course players will want easy ways to get money, why would they vote down an easy way to get money? If I held a vote right now on whether we should give each player $1000000000 in game money, do you think people would vote it down? No. So we made the decision that we felt was best for the server.

Very unfortunate but understood.  Although I still think the problem lies in the afk-ing and not in the selling to the market.

Quote from: Nick3306 on September 11, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
Oh, and having players donate to get money (which they have been able to do for a long time) is good because that money keeps the server running.

As I stated before I have nothing against donations or rewards for those donations like disguises, /homes etc. which indeed can help keep the server running but not ingame money. People could buy their way to the top which is unfair.

I guess we could agree to disagree on this last point? 

Quote from: mopar23 on September 11, 2013, 03:37:11 PM
I would quote Lando but his post is too long it would take forever to edit.

Hey said a few times that wiping baltop would be a good way to fix this mess.

I completely disagree, that is extremely unfair to those who worked for their money. They put time and money into that. For example, Dropzone1446. He mined for hours and hours and hours, not used golf/iron farms. Fish_Luver, he donated for a lot if his money. I got my money from mining and selling statues. Just because a majority of people have a lot of money because of iron/gold farms doesn't mean everyone should have their balance wiped. Wiping baltop would truly be the end of opticraft.

Sorry about the long post, no need to edit it, your point is clear, however:

That's not what I said. 

I said that in combination with removing iron and gold we should also make a fresh start with /baltop because a lot of players have become rich that way. It would be completely unfair to let them stay rich and not give others that same chance. So either remove iron and gold AND wipe /baltop ......or don't do anything at all.

You cannot deny that it would solve the big and unfair differences we have atm. And I understand that others would suffer from it too but it would be a fresh start for everyone! Not just you or certain people in particular. 

But what you don't seem to understand is that many people have put a lot of time and effort in their farms and the current solution wouldn't be fair to those people at all!
And don't be too dramatic about a wipe of /baltop because it's a very small part of the server. People won't leave for something like that. People seem to spend their money very easily. They have to make new money all the time. So don't worry, a wipe isn't the end of the world. 

In addition to that I said that the easiest solution would be to remove the entire market and monetary system. But I also stated that most people probably wouldn't like that. It would however make this a real survival server.

Any suggestions of wiping /baltop are unlikely to happen due to all the players who have donated for money.

Also, it's stupidly hard to do due to the way essentials saves player data.