Opticraft Community

Quote from: Chief149 on July 26, 2013, 10:37:56 PM

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 26, 2013, 04:13:07 AM
Nate, its not about being open, its about being realistic. Most suggestions get shot down because they are either stupid, or are not feasible. Its easy to suggest we add something, but its much harder to add something.

The following ideas are feasible, and not really "stupid" but that's kind of a personal opinion:
    - jetpacks (donor item)
    - mob spawn eggs (donation item)
    - pvp
    - allowing players to look up logblock info on a block (could reduce grief complaints if a player can look up a block to see if they, a friend of theirs, or an actual griefer placed/destroyed the block(s))
    - protection flag for animals
    - lava buckets for furnaces, but still can't place the lava

Pretty much all of the above were denied, or ignored to the point where everyone forgot about the idea's existence as the idea slowly got pushed to the bottom of the forums. Sure, there were downsides that were thought up of for the ideas, but a lot of those downsides were things that are likely to not become that big of an issue[spoiler=Example]Example: supposedly there is a glitch allowing players to place lava in laggy server conditions, but is there really going to be that large of a problem with people placing lava to grief? Sure there might be the occasional /helpop for that, but it can be fixed, and things like fire/fire spread are turned off anyways. Personally I don't think it would become a big issue, but that's the main reason why the idea got shot down.[/spoiler]

The above supports some of our claims that this server is a little closed-minded with new ideas. We just need ideas for improvement, and many of the ideas that were shot down could bring some improvement, and they can always be implemented as an idea in beta that could be taken back away at any moment should it turn out to be bad for real.

Chief, out of everything you listed, pvp is the only worthwhile suggestion. And your example for lava is not a very good one, sure you think only a few helpop tickets isn't a big deal but you don't have to deal with the people that died in player placed lava and lost all their stuff.

Any donation item suggestion (like spawn eggs) was not shot down, its just the simple fact that opti controls the donation stuff and there is nothing we can do about it. I have stated that multiple times throughout those suggestion posts.

You can call the server close minded all you want and to an extent that is true, we only tend to add stuff we feel would be worth it.

Quote from: Tobs on July 26, 2013, 12:27:37 PM
This has been on my mind for a while, and I guess it all goes back to the fact we need someone to make the things that the sever "needs", be it optical or cschurz- prehaps someone new, but optical would need to trust them we'd have to find someone first. If they are willing to knuckle down and work on improvements we would be able to get some new stuff, but as Nick said they need to be feasible and useful, with what little resources we have. We don't have an army of Devs and they don't have lots of time on their hands.

I'm in no way saying I don't want new stuff, as I'd really like some sort of Opticraft exclusive PvP or minigames to keep myself occupied when not doing anything, but it isn't as simple as dragging and dropping files and expecting it to work.

This is spot on.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 26, 2013, 04:13:07 AM
Nate, its not about being open, its about being realistic. Most suggestions get shot down because they are either stupid, or are not feasible. Its easy to suggest we add something, but its much harder to add something.

Although it may be harder to add new aspects of gameplay, its that really a reason to just give up? I agree with you on the point that some suggestions might not be the best but some suggestions are possible. I'm also getting the feeling that some people, it may just be me, have had enough of the "we are working on it" response. Even as an Operator I got that response, and now I know how some of the non-staff members feel when it comes to these types of things. If we are a community, a server where now 50+ people to spend hours of their time daily playing, then I think that a straight answer would be nice.

It would be nice to find a dedicated, active developer although that will take even more time. Now does it have to be Optical's responsibility to look for developers? Probably not. It just comes down to two things, trust and effort.

Quote from: bantam2 on July 27, 2013, 02:58:20 AM

Quote from: Tobs on July 26, 2013, 12:27:37 PM
This has been on my mind for a while, and I guess it all goes back to the fact we need someone to make the things that the sever "needs", be it optical or cschurz- prehaps someone new, but optical would need to trust them we'd have to find someone first. If they are willing to knuckle down and work on improvements we would be able to get some new stuff, but as Nick said they need to be feasible and useful, with what little resources we have. We don't have an army of Devs and they don't have lots of time on their hands.

I'm in no way saying I don't want new stuff, as I'd really like some sort of Opticraft exclusive PvP or minigames to keep myself occupied when not doing anything, but it isn't as simple as dragging and dropping files and expecting it to work.

This is spot on.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 26, 2013, 04:13:07 AM
Nate, its not about being open, its about being realistic. Most suggestions get shot down because they are either stupid, or are not feasible. Its easy to suggest we add something, but its much harder to add something.

Although it may be harder to add new aspects of gameplay, its that really a reason to just give up? I agree with you on the point that some suggestions might not be the best but some suggestions are possible. I'm also getting the feeling that some people, it may just be me, have had enough of the "we are working on it" response. Even as an Operator I got that response, and now I know how some of the non-staff members feel when it comes to these types of things. If we are a community, a server where now 50+ people to spend hours of their time daily playing, then I think that a straight answer would be nice.

It would be nice to find a dedicated, active developer although that will take even more time. Now does it have to be Optical's responsibility to look for developers? Probably not. It just comes down to two things, trust and effort.

Who said we gave up? You seem to think this we reject suggestions for no reason at all. You are completely ignoring how difficult it is to add things to the server that people want.

As for the "we are working on it" i'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. If you are referring to us not giving you straight answers on projects and stuff that is just the best way to do it. The last time we gave a straight answer was when they announced the PVP plugin was being developed, then look what happened, i had to deal with people asking me why we lied to them since it never got released. So for now I avoid those questions for different reasons. If we say we are working on it, we are working on it, not sure what you want us to say, if you want false hope i guess i can give it to you.

But if Optical and Dejected had actually went through on the idea and released PvP, you wouldn't have to have lied to people with that post. It all comes back to needing developers that aren't busy, and that are actually dedicated to working on the server.

And I don't think saying "we're working on it" is a bad thing to say, like you said, when you are actually working on a feature.. you're working on it. But I think what people are over is getting told something is being worked on, but in reality it was dropped, and yet people are still being told the same thing. Take PvP for example, no one was ever told straight up that it was not being worked on anymore, the idea was just slowly left to die out.

That's just what I think.

Quote from: xDeeKay on July 27, 2013, 03:49:04 AM
But if Optical and Dejected had actually went through on the idea and released PvP, you wouldn't have to have lied to people with that post. It all comes back to needing developers that aren't busy, and that are actually dedicated to working on the server.

And I don't think saying "we're working on it" is a bad thing to say, like you said, when you are actually working on a feature.. you're working on it. But I think what people are over is getting told something is being worked on, but in reality it was dropped, and yet people are still being told the same thing. Take PvP for example, no one was ever told straight up that it was not being worked on anymore, the idea was just slowly left to die out.

That's just what I think.

But see these things are out of my control. Even I didn't know what was going on with the PVP plugin, i was never told really until long after they stopped working on it.

Then I guess we will all have to wait and see what Optical has planned. I just don't see how leaving everything up to Opti as an efficient way of getting things done.

Quote from: bantam2 on July 27, 2013, 03:57:40 AM
Then I guess we will all have to wait and see what Optical has planned. I just don't see how leaving everything up to Opti as an efficient way of getting things done.

He is the owner, it is the ONLY way of getting things done..... I do what I can by myself but i'm not sure how you expect us to get things like plugins on the server without him, everything runs through him....

Its true that he is the only person who can add plugins to the server but is there no preparation that can be done to make it easier for him?

Quote from: bantam2 on July 27, 2013, 04:18:13 AM
Its true that he is the only person who can add plugins to the server but is there no preparation that can be done to make it easier for him?

But see now we get back to the fact that it is easy to sit there and say "hey lets get another developer to make optis life easier". I have already explained the difficulties behind that to you in a pm.

Yeah, getting another developer would require finding someone who can be trusted to the point of allowing said person to have a copy of the Opticraft SMP Server Plugin source code. Not only that, but this mega-trusted person has to have special server permissions to be able to test the plugins on the server after doing initial tests on a private server. Oh, and the person has to be a decent programmer.

Quote from: bantam2 on July 27, 2013, 03:57:40 AM
Then I guess we will all have to wait and see what Optical has planned.

Quote from: awesomealicia on July 23, 2013, 07:23:09 PM
We never had 100s of people.

100 would be more exact - around when I joined there was 80-100 people on all the time, and the peak I've seen is 230.

Quote from: bantam2 on July 27, 2013, 02:58:20 AM

Quote from: Tobs on July 26, 2013, 12:27:37 PM
This has been on my mind for a while, and I guess it all goes back to the fact we need someone to make the things that the sever "needs", be it optical or cschurz- prehaps someone new, but optical would need to trust them we'd have to find someone first. If they are willing to knuckle down and work on improvements we would be able to get some new stuff, but as Nick said they need to be feasible and useful, with what little resources we have. We don't have an army of Devs and they don't have lots of time on their hands.

I'm in no way saying I don't want new stuff, as I'd really like some sort of Opticraft exclusive PvP or minigames to keep myself occupied when not doing anything, but it isn't as simple as dragging and dropping files and expecting it to work.

This is spot on.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 26, 2013, 04:13:07 AM
Nate, its not about being open, its about being realistic. Most suggestions get shot down because they are either stupid, or are not feasible. Its easy to suggest we add something, but its much harder to add something.

Although it may be harder to add new aspects of gameplay, its that really a reason to just give up? I agree with you on the point that some suggestions might not be the best but some suggestions are possible. I'm also getting the feeling that some people, it may just be me, have had enough of the "we are working on it" response. Even as an Operator I got that response, and now I know how some of the non-staff members feel when it comes to these types of things. If we are a community, a server where now 50+ people to spend hours of their time daily playing, then I think that a straight answer would be nice.

It would be nice to find a dedicated, active developer although that will take even more time. Now does it have to be Optical's responsibility to look for developers? Probably not. It just comes down to two things, trust and effort.

Working on it. Give me 10 years to get education on coding and such.

Personally I don't really mind a low player count.  I'm kinda used to it on other servers.  With a low count you get less griefing, less drama, and a closer player community.  I also enjoy running into players while just randomly wandering around, which you only truly get on high-count servers or small map servers.  So, that said, I can't really vote which I would like better...  Anyway, to reply to a few things;

Quote from: awesomealicia on July 23, 2013, 07:23:09 PM
We never had 100s of people.

Says who?  I remember back when I first started here the numbers were always between 100 and 150 with a server limit of 300...  Unless it was being artificially "padded", that's 100's of people.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 27, 2013, 04:22:59 AM
But see now we get back to the fact that it is easy to sit there and say "hey lets get another developer to make optis life easier". I have already explained the difficulties behind that to you in a pm.

I don't see why it should be hard anyway.  I'm assuming the server is running on a build of Bukkit, which means adding plugins takes little to no effort at all.  I know, I do it all the time...  There isn't a need to go and build new plugins.  Most stuff already exists out there.  Take PVP for example.  There are plugins like Multiverse, which I believe is already in use here, that can generate full PVP worlds while not damaging the existing ones.  You can even set it so players have a unique inventory for that world, which flips back and forth if they return to the SMP one.

There are plugins that can limit PVP to specific areas, say a city or village, if players want their "protected" area as a PVP zone.  There are also plugins that can limit PVP to specific time when triggered, like a timed combat arena that's activated by pushing a button...  These things already exist out there so there's no need to build a custom new plugin for it.  Tweak the existing plugin if it doesn't do exactly what you want it to.  Odds are if you want to do something in bukkit the plugin already exists.

Quote from: ViperZeroOne on July 27, 2013, 02:31:23 PM

Quote from: awesomealicia on July 23, 2013, 07:23:09 PM
We never had 100s of people.

Says who?  I remember back when I first started here the numbers were always between 100 and 150 with a server limit of 300...  Unless it was being artificially "padded", that's 100's of people.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 27, 2013, 04:22:59 AM
But see now we get back to the fact that it is easy to sit there and say "hey lets get another developer to make optis life easier". I have already explained the difficulties behind that to you in a pm.

I don't see why it should be hard anyway.  I'm assuming the server is running on a build of Bukkit, which means adding plugins takes little to no effort at all.  I know, I do it all the time...  There isn't a need to go and build new plugins.  Most stuff already exists out there.  Take PVP for example.  There are plugins like Multiverse, which I believe is already in use here, that can generate full PVP worlds while not damaging the existing ones.  You can even set it so players have a unique inventory for that world, which flips back and forth if they return to the SMP one.

There are plugins that can limit PVP to specific areas, say a city or village, if players want their "protected" area as a PVP zone.  There are also plugins that can limit PVP to specific time when triggered, like a timed combat arena that's activated by pushing a button...  These things already exist out there so there's no need to build a custom new plugin for it.  Tweak the existing plugin if it doesn't do exactly what you want it to.  Odds are if you want to do something in bukkit the plugin already exists.

Viper I'll tell you what I told bantam. One of the reasons this server is great is because of how specific opti is with what he puts on it. I love your multiverse example because opti looked at multiverse, decided it was coded poorly and then coded his own version. Things like that is why our server is so stable and works well. It is easy to find a coder, it is extremely hard to find someone who is a good coder if you get what I mean. 99% of the plugins out there today are just trash due to poor coding and backdoors and such. This is why optical codes most of the stuff we have on the server, the quality control is great because of that.

If you use other plugins, you are at the mercy of them not messing up and causing great damage to your server. A great example was last year LWC had a security loophole and someone came on opti and shut off everyone protections (chest, doors, ect) we caught it within minutes and shut down the server, but if none of us were on.... lets just say it would have ended badly. I feel like the problem is people don't exactly get all the things that can go wrong, they just say "hey this is possible, why not add it for us?"

BTW, we never always had between 100 and 150 players, during peak hours it got up there but after that we slid back down to like 50 or so.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 27, 2013, 03:13:08 PM
Viper I'll tell you what I told bantam. One of the reasons this server is great is because of how specific opti is with what he puts on it. I love your multiverse example because opti looked at multiverse, decided it was coded poorly and then coded his own version. Things like that is why our server is so stable and works well. It is easy to find a coder, it is extremely hard to find someone who is a good coder if you get what I mean. 99% of the plugins out there today are just trash due to poor coding and backdoors and such. This is why optical codes most of the stuff we have on the server, the quality control is great because of that.

Oh, I totally agree with you Nick.  I know the plugins are trash and contain extra crap you don't need.  I'm just saying it's not always necessary to build your own plugin.  99% of plugins out there are available in source format.  Grab one that's close to what you want, modify it, and repair any bugs you find.  Makes the process a whole lot easier than building the plugin from the ground up.

Quote from: Nick3306 on July 26, 2013, 10:45:08 PM
You can call the server close minded all you want and to an extent that is true, we only tend to add stuff we feel would be worth it.

I personally don't think the server is close minded.  I actually think it's been far too open minded.  One of the biggest mistakes we (and I'm including myself cause I "voted" for it many times) made was the addition of so many new worlds.

Let's face it, the player base doesn't support having 3 worlds.  I realize most of the new worlds were to bring in new content but looking back I think the better option would have been doing a complete wipe of the original guest world, back when it was deemed too damaged to save, and then just continually expanding the borders as new Minecraft content got released.

I've got some experience in this area, cause I've done many map wipes.  Sure, you're going to have some pissed off players.  You might even loose a few, who will return later (trust me).  The anger, however, will quickly vanish as they find new locations to build and start on new projects.  Not to mention, all of the resources are regenerated and new content is EVERYWHERE, not just around the edges.  If a map wipe was out of the question, then clearing areas, or rather regenerating them, should have been given to some very trustworthy staff as part of their daily routines (with strict guidelines to follow, of course).  There wasn't really a need (based solely on player numbers) to add the additional worlds.

Don't think I'm blaming anyone, or pointing fingers, because I'm not.  It's easy to look back and go, "we should have done this".  Much harder to judge before it happens.  I'm just saying my opinion on what might have been done.