September 20, 2020, 11:33:11 pm

Poll

Would you support such changes?

Yes
28 (38.4%)
No
17 (23.3%)
I support some of them
28 (38.4%)

Total Members Voted: 72

Author Topic: Proposed smp changes  (Read 48774 times)

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TheWholeLoaf

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #135 on: March 25, 2016, 03:29:42 pm »
My argument to wipe the server to level the playing field is not a void point. I am mainly speaking of the newer players vs older players, where as the older players have had more time to play, the newer players would not be able to ever catch up in terms of wealth. And when I say wealth, I am in no means only referring to money, but supplies in general.

You say that if a server wipe were to happen, the division of wealth would be pretty noticeable within the first few days. I disagree, mainly because the players that have overwhelming supplies will no longer have these, there will be no easy way to get back to where they once were. I am also in favor of the economic changes, to get rid of money all together and make the only opportunity to get resources that players have is to either get it themselves or work with others in order to get it. If farms still arise after that, I am perfectly fine with it, but players will not have such things as the market to help them get there, things like the price of melons helping them get all the money they would ever need to help support their later farms.

You are correct in calling me out on end cities, I was not aware that the end was now infinite, however, I assume there is still a boarder on it as there is with the main worlds and nether worlds, so there is still a finite supply of these cities.

But it is a void point! After a whipe the current situation would appear again, farms would be built again and large differences will be noticeable within a few days.
You speak of the use of the market to build farms. I didn't use the market at all for my farms. When I joined I began at zero and there were players with millions. That didn't hinder me in any way to build and develop myself and look where I am now. New players wouldn't be able to catch up? I did!

Regarding the new end world, yes you are right, there could be a border (the  borders are  somewhere but it is unlikely because I'm already 30.000 blocks out and the cities keep coming. (And that's just in one straight direction.) So the amount of cities is overwhelming and more than enough for hundreds possibly thousands of players.




Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the developement, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My developement would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.

I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 03:32:21 pm by TheWholeLoaf »
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OzzyKP

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #136 on: March 25, 2016, 03:35:23 pm »
Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

The reason those farms got out of control was because of the server-run market which bought infinite quantities of them, not because currency existed.

If someone builds something useful/beautiful/interesting and others want to pay them for access, why should we stand in the way?  No one is harmed by it.
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HarryTheGuerilla

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #137 on: March 25, 2016, 04:09:37 pm »
I vote no for a few reasons. But I can also tolerate a few of these ideas.

Firstly a complete wipe of the worlds would be ridiculous. there are so many buildings under construction and many more buildings that are in use. Many of these buildings are massive and they took a long time to build. Sure a world download could be cool to have so that those buildings get used, but it would not be the same as coming onto opticraft. I personally come on opticraft because of all the buildings I have made over the years as well as coming on to build more.

PVP everywhere is a terrible idea, the entire reason i have stayed on Opticraft for years and years is because there was no PVP. I do not like having to have the best armor and to have to worry about people coming after me when I am trying to build. However why not make a PVP only world in a 1.9 world. This way people who want PVP and new world can go to the new world, and at the same time they can still talk in chat.

Yes the economy is broke, but removing it would be a bad idea, the economy is what kept so many people on here. When the server removed selling iron blocks, melons, and pumpkins, a lot of people left the server because of that. So removing the economy would drive the few remaining people away. Yes I understand that the AFK farming of those blocks was bad but it drove a lot of people away. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
As for the removal of the server market, I would say no. That market is not a bad thing it is just dysfunctional. The prices of blocks need to be re-assessed and Protection stones should not cost so much. As others have said Protections stones cost way too much. Although the prices are a lot better than what they used to be.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 04:12:06 pm by HarryTheGuerilla »

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #138 on: March 25, 2016, 05:02:54 pm »
PVP everywhere is a terrible idea, the entire reason i have stayed on Opticraft for years and years is because there was no PVP. I do not like having to have the best armor and to have to worry about people coming after me when I am trying to build. However why not make a PVP only world in a 1.9 world. This way people who want PVP and new world can go to the new world, and at the same time they can still talk in chat.
We will not be adding PvP everywhere, merely expanding on the current PvP system that we have (which is currently half-assed). Opticraft has never primarily been about PvP, however since very early on a fun PvP system has been something a lot of people have wanted.

I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
This is what everyone is discussing currently, if we didn't care we would go ahead and remove it without even talking about it. Removing specific blocks is a completely different matter, we had left them able to be sold for months - not to mention giving everyone a weeks notice, but that's beating a dead horse.
         


Nick3306

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #139 on: March 25, 2016, 05:54:22 pm »
. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
You are aware that this topic is the discussion that you speak of right? I mean there's a poll and everything.  It is not just staff that wants a change in the economy (some staff don't) but it is also the players as yes is currently winning in the poll. Not everyone is going to like change, but if the majority wants it, it will occur.
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OzzyKP

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #140 on: March 25, 2016, 06:07:34 pm »
. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
You are aware that this topic is the discussion that you speak of right? I mean there's a poll and everything.  It is not just staff that wants a change in the economy (some staff don't) but it is also the players as yes is currently winning in the poll. Not everyone is going to like change, but if the majority wants it, it will occur.

Only 40% voted for 'yes'.  And several of those after the world wipe was taken off the table.  Several more of those 'yes' votes were before they understood what exactly you were proposing for the economy. 

If you want a useful poll you should have everyone vote on each proposal individually since "I support some of them" is a bit hard to get usable information out of.  Also each proposal should be explained (perhaps alternates offered) otherwise people who think we should have a player-run economy as I described would vote for your "addition of player trading system" option which is very different than what they'd want.

But yes, I am thankful for this discussion and give you guys total credit for starting it off and hashing it out with all the players here.
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Lando_V

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #141 on: March 26, 2016, 12:05:03 am »
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.



It is just a question of what is considered a rare item.
I guess that would be things like:
-Beacons
-Sponge
-Heads/skulls

Maybe:
-Horse armour
-Saddles
-Elytra
-Spawneggs
-Nametags

UnknownHedgehog

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #142 on: March 26, 2016, 12:53:38 am »
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?

Nick3306

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #143 on: March 26, 2016, 02:46:39 am »
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.
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UnknownHedgehog

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #144 on: March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am »
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.

Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop

Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).

And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 04:28:16 am by UnknownHedgehog »

Lando_V

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #145 on: March 26, 2016, 08:57:13 am »
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.

UnknownHedgehog

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #146 on: March 26, 2016, 09:11:18 am »
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.

Lando_V

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #147 on: March 26, 2016, 12:51:26 pm »
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #148 on: March 26, 2016, 01:45:42 pm »
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
simply give all the money to me and I will appropriately divide it out

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Re: Proposed smp changes
« Reply #149 on: March 26, 2016, 03:21:24 pm »
While I have not played much on the server in a while, I do think a server reset would be great. The worlds are covered in old projects that are: 1. Unfinished 2. Griefed or 3. Just ghost towns. These are some of the things that are possibly making people uninterested in playing. They have done everything already, or they do not have the drive to build what they started because it has probably been partially destroyed and forgotten. I do not mind any changes to the economy, but I feel that PvP will make some players leave for sure and others play more often. While I am not bad at PvP, I do get sick of kids always trying to kill out of bloodlust and destroy everything out of immaturity. These are just my thoughts, and as a side not, I would just like to say I can't wait to see what OptiQuest is like.