Opticraft Community

Discussion forum => Legacy => Archives => Server News => Topic started by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 07:45:32 pm

Title: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 07:45:32 pm
After long discussions with optical, tobs, alicia, and deekay, we feel it would be in the servers best interests to make some changes and try to get people interested in the server again.

Proposed changes include:
- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of pvp modes
- Addition of a player trading system
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
- Change to a player defined protection field system

We believe these changes will create more of a survival feel to the server and encourage players to return to the server that they may have gotten bored with. Keep in mind these are all just proposed changes and we really want to know what you guys think about them because at the end of the day, it is really what you guys want, not us.

#MakeSurvivalGreatAgain
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: gavin on March 18, 2016, 08:31:47 pm
I'm a big fan of the changes, one suggestion / thing I would like to see is full PVP.  If the world was either fully pvp or had only small protected zones that would be fun.  I feel like it would make the server more interesting to play on.  Also if you got sick of people building afk farms you could always just kill them! 

Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: FNVcourierjon(SigilStone) on March 18, 2016, 09:27:33 pm
Why do people want to wipe the server?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 09:53:03 pm
Why do people want to wipe the server?
Many players we have talked to said they stopped playing because it got boring. When you have basically an infinite amount of money or items, survival becomes stale. We figured it was time to make our survival server actually survival.

For those of you who voted no, we would like to hear why.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Sade66 on March 18, 2016, 10:29:13 pm
I love the idea! I agree that SMP has fallen away from that "survival" aspect. I think (Depending on Funds) that we should have like and oldsmp.opticraft.net which would host the server in its current state for the people that still want their progress. :)
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: clawstrider on March 18, 2016, 10:45:23 pm
- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of pvp modes
- Addition of a player trading system
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
- Change to a player defined protection field system

My opinions:

Yes
No
I'd be interested in more info, but right now leaning towards no (We've tried this before....)
Doubtful if this would make a huge difference
No
Doubtful if this would make a huge difference


On a different note, I'm totally opposed to all these changes without two things:
1. I still think bungee should be the only priority of the server
2. A revised statement about OptiQuest (Don't try to work on them simultaneously...)
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 18, 2016, 10:50:06 pm

On a different note, I'm totally opposed to all these changes without two things:
1. I still think bungee should be the only priority of the server
2. A revised statement about OptiQuest (Don't try to work on them simultaneously...)

Optiquest will be an on going project that wont end any time soon, so they will probably be worked on at the same time. There will be a slow period after release, but it will still be worked  on.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 10:52:36 pm
- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of pvp modes
- Addition of a player trading system
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
- Change to a player defined protection field system

My opinions:

Yes
No
I'd be interested in more info, but right now leaning towards no (We've tried this before....)
Doubtful if this would make a huge difference
No
Doubtful if this would make a huge difference


On a different note, I'm totally opposed to all these changes without two things:
1. I still think bungee should be the only priority of the server
2. A revised statement about OptiQuest (Don't try to work on them simultaneously...)
The player trading system would make a huge difference if the economy was shrunk.
We have not tried proper PVP before, this would be properly programmed in PVP, not the ghetto version we created.
Bungeecord is also something we really want to do with this but we don't want to make promises.

Optiquest is barely effected by this, compared to the work that has to be done on optiquest, this is almost nothing.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 18, 2016, 11:01:00 pm
-Sever world wipes: I disagree to a server wipe, but do agree with a fresh start. What I mean is that I like the idea of all the worlds being new and fresh, but I don't like the idea of the old worlds being wiped  (even if put up for download). What I would prefer are the old world's existing as an archive of sorts where players can still visit, but can not edit the world, while at the same time there being new worlds that are completely a fresh start to the new system.

-Economy Simplification: I'm not too sure on completely removing the economy system, but I do agree that simplification may be in order if we are to preserve the survival aspect of smp. For example, having only a few things on the market and raising the prices so that people aren't too reliant on the market. Though, I'm not sure about that either. What I would probably prefer would be a user based market where the players themselves set up stands at the market and sell things rather than the server. This would also make it truly an economy based on supply and demand as opposed to the anti-capitalist fixed market price we're currently slaves to. #MakeSurvivalGreatAgain

-PVP modes: Yup, pvp modes for sure so long as it is done properly.

-Player trading: I think the player trading idea might fall into what I said above.

-Point accumulation: Agree with this. Not much else to say.

-Player defined PS: Ditto.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 11:06:59 pm
Great insight hedge, but wont making them non editable almost be like putting them up for download? I mean they would server no purpose except taking up space.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 18, 2016, 11:13:28 pm
Great insight hedge, but wont making them non editable almost be like putting them up for download? I mean they would server no purpose except taking up space.

I think more along the lines of them being there as more of to keep history of the server. Older players would know to download them, but newer ones probably won't. Plus, the countless hours each player put on the server would still be on the server, which is more convenient for older players to reminisce about things, and newer interested players who want to see the old worlds.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: clawstrider on March 18, 2016, 11:26:58 pm
The player trading system would make a huge difference if the economy was shrunk.
We have not tried proper PVP before, this would be properly programmed in PVP, not the ghetto version we created.
Bungeecord is also something we really want to do with this but we don't want to make promises.

Optiquest is barely effected by this, compared to the work that has to be done on optiquest, this is almost nothing.

You'd need to go into more detail on what a trading system means. I mean, it could be some kind of auction plugin (which I don't think would be widely used), or it could be entirely removing the buying part of the market, and replacing it with player run shops (which have their own problems with inactivity, etc...)

Again, I think more detail would be helpful. Are we talking a total pvp faction server? A pvp gamemode (As in type /duel, queues you up, you fight another player)? Some kind of /pvp command to enable combat?

As for Bungeecord, I'll keep pestering you guys till you try ;) It's something I really, really support.

And just to confirm, is there any ETA of Optiquest? Are we talking 3-4 months, or far, far future?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 11:31:38 pm
The player trading system would make a huge difference if the economy was shrunk.
We have not tried proper PVP before, this would be properly programmed in PVP, not the ghetto version we created.
Bungeecord is also something we really want to do with this but we don't want to make promises.

Optiquest is barely effected by this, compared to the work that has to be done on optiquest, this is almost nothing.

You'd need to go into more detail on what a trading system means. I mean, it could be some kind of auction plugin (which I don't think would be widely used), or it could be entirely removing the buying part of the market, and replacing it with player run shops (which have their own problems with inactivity, etc...)

Again, I think more detail would be helpful. Are we talking a total pvp faction server? A pvp gamemode (As in type /duel, queues you up, you fight another player)? Some kind of /pvp command to enable combat?

As for Bungeecord, I'll keep pestering you guys till you try ;) It's something I really, really support.

And just to confirm, is there any ETA of Optiquest? Are we talking 3-4 months, or far, far future?
1. It would be a player to player trading system, an auction system wouldnt make sense since there is no currency.
2. As for the type of pvp, i said it would just be pvp modes. The player would be put into a ready queue with his or her party and be teleported to the arena when the game starts and then teleported back to where they were in the main world when it is over.

As for optiquest, we said in the optiquest thread that the alpha version should be released around mid summer.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: codepmman on March 18, 2016, 11:34:27 pm
Breaking my silence!
Are you guys insane? Really and truly, if you implement this many changes then is it really still Opticraft? It's like if I handed you a lemon and tried to tell you "It's an orange!" The market and economy is half the reason Opticraft is bearable (explained later.) To integrate this points system is ridiculous. Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests. Some people want to dig and build.
I may not play a bunch now, but I'm speaking up for those who may feel that speaking up might cost them their position within the community. I am worried about this as well, but I feel this needs to be said regardless of the repercussions. If I was to fully lose Opticraft I would be sad, but I could not watch you completely change the server and say nothing.
 Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP. I understand this post is your sad attempt at asking people their opinion, but you really should talk to more SMP staff members before going public. Not to mention THE OWNER of the server has countless times expressed that he does not like these sorts of changes, and I'm sure if his opinion has changed at all, it is only because he grows weary of your constant badgering.
You seem to want to change Opticraft and turn it into something that it is not. You went and made a Creative server and decided that it would be cool to throw the Opticraft name on it... Does that make it Opticraft? You tried to make PvP, but that's not Opti either. You are now trying to make it more like a quest based server in that people would have to collect points for "rare blocks" or "protection" but that's still no Opticraft. People like this server because it is survival with a market, sans PvP... Simple. Now granted it needs some cleaning up but not a whole revamp.
Never really told anyone as to why I stopped playing. It's not because I was bored, it's because of you Nick, and your band of goons bringing up drama and always trying to change things. I quit because I grew up and didn't want to deal with cry babies. I know my opinion might not matter because I really don't play much any more, but as stated previously, I only stopped because of Nick and his lackeys.
To the people saying that they would like PvP, go to a PvP server. Nick got us to try PVP on Opticraft, and from what I hear it is almost never used. People saying they got bored because they had too much money? Start over! Don't rely on the market, get stuff manually! The problem is not with Opticraft, it is with the player. If you don't like it, don't play. If it's not your style, then sorry - but this is no reason to fundamentally change Opticraft as a whole.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 18, 2016, 11:49:39 pm
Breaking my silence!
Are you guys insane? Really and truly, if you implement this many changes then is it really still Opticraft? It's like if I handed you a lemon and tried to tell you "It's an orange!" The market and economy is half the reason Opticraft is bearable (explained later.) To integrate this points system is ridiculous. Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests. Some people want to dig and build.
I may not play a bunch now, but I'm speaking up for those who may feel that speaking up might cost them their position within the community. I am worried about this as well, but I feel this needs to be said regardless of the repercussions. If I was to fully lose Opticraft I would be sad, but I could not watch you completely change the server and say nothing.
 Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP. I understand this post is your sad attempt at asking people their opinion, but you really should talk to more SMP staff members before going public. Not to mention THE OWNER of the server has countless times expressed that he does not like these sorts of changes, and I'm sure if his opinion has changed at all, it is only because he grows weary of your constant badgering.
You seem to want to change Opticraft and turn it into something that it is not. You went and made a Creative server and decided that it would be cool to throw the Opticraft name on it... Does that make it Opticraft? You tried to make PvP, but that's not Opti either. You are now trying to make it more like a quest based server in that people would have to collect points for "rare blocks" or "protection" but that's still no Opticraft. People like this server because it is survival with a market, sans PvP... Simple. Now granted it needs some cleaning up but not a whole revamp.
Never really told anyone as to why I stopped playing. It's not because I was bored, it's because of you Nick, and your band of goons bringing up drama and always trying to change things. I quit because I grew up and didn't want to deal with cry babies. I know my opinion might not matter because I really don't play much any more, but as stated previously, I only stopped because of Nick and his lackeys.
To the people saying that they would like PvP, go to a PvP server. Nick got us to try PVP on Opticraft, and from what I hear it is almost never used. People saying they got bored because they had too much money? Start over! Don't rely on the market, get stuff manually! The problem is not with Opticraft, it is with the player. If you don't like it, don't play. If it's not your style, then sorry - but this is no reason to fundamentally change Opticraft as a whole.
You post is very uninformed. Couple things.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here.
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding.
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do.

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: gavin on March 18, 2016, 11:52:27 pm
Just a quick write up on what I think will be most important about the new server changes... the economy. 

The current market is set up in such a way that only those who already made money can see any benefit from it.  In order to buy one diamond protection stone you need to sell 22 stacks of iron ore.  Basically to get a minimal level of protection you must mine for 6+ hours.  This is a result of people abusing the market system to get rich or by afking ridiculously long amounts of time (not saying this is a bad thing as I obviously do/did it as well).

I agree with Hedge's point in that players should have the ability to set up shops.  We should not be pulling items out of thing air with the market, but the market should be a trading shop.  The server should have no official economy whatsoever, rather an official shopping district/area where players can put up shops.  If the shops are complained about they can be removed.  (Also to make sure this area isn't ugly players would only be able to stock chests/determine prices).  If players stop stocking a shop or an item deal is never used the shop could be removed.

Here is my full proposal in list form for easy reading:

The main takeaway from my post is that the economy should not exist, but rather a market where items are traded based on their worth.  This could either be completely set up by the admins so all the prices are predetermined, or players could even be allowed to join in and sell items. 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: FluffyPanda1111 on March 19, 2016, 12:01:55 am
Plz! Don't change SMP! maybe we could just have two worlds! :D A new and old! Everyone can transfer from the two worlds! just some more land to live off of! I do think some of the changes like PVP might me fun! But plz DO NOT wipe the server clear!
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: codepmman on March 19, 2016, 12:03:49 am
Breaking my silence!
Are you guys insane? Really and truly, if you implement this many changes then is it really still Opticraft? It's like if I handed you a lemon and tried to tell you "It's an orange!" The market and economy is half the reason Opticraft is bearable (explained later.) To integrate this points system is ridiculous. Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests. Some people want to dig and build.
I may not play a bunch now, but I'm speaking up for those who may feel that speaking up might cost them their position within the community. I am worried about this as well, but I feel this needs to be said regardless of the repercussions. If I was to fully lose Opticraft I would be sad, but I could not watch you completely change the server and say nothing.
 Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP. I understand this post is your sad attempt at asking people their opinion, but you really should talk to more SMP staff members before going public. Not to mention THE OWNER of the server has countless times expressed that he does not like these sorts of changes, and I'm sure if his opinion has changed at all, it is only because he grows weary of your constant badgering.
You seem to want to change Opticraft and turn it into something that it is not. You went and made a Creative server and decided that it would be cool to throw the Opticraft name on it... Does that make it Opticraft? You tried to make PvP, but that's not Opti either. You are now trying to make it more like a quest based server in that people would have to collect points for "rare blocks" or "protection" but that's still no Opticraft. People like this server because it is survival with a market, sans PvP... Simple. Now granted it needs some cleaning up but not a whole revamp.
Never really told anyone as to why I stopped playing. It's not because I was bored, it's because of you Nick, and your band of goons bringing up drama and always trying to change things. I quit because I grew up and didn't want to deal with cry babies. I know my opinion might not matter because I really don't play much any more, but as stated previously, I only stopped because of Nick and his lackeys.
To the people saying that they would like PvP, go to a PvP server. Nick got us to try PVP on Opticraft, and from what I hear it is almost never used. People saying they got bored because they had too much money? Start over! Don't rely on the market, get stuff manually! The problem is not with Opticraft, it is with the player. If you don't like it, don't play. If it's not your style, then sorry - but this is no reason to fundamentally change Opticraft as a whole.
You post is very uninformed. Couple things.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here.
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding.
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do.

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure  (except years of constant badgering)
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.( i assumed "survival activities" meant quests my bad, and this type of belittling is part of the reason i stopped playing)
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here. (staff should be consulted before going public so issues can be hammered out hence why there are staff forums)
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding. (i will leave this alone but remember when poked enough some people will just roll over)
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do. (again just voicing my opinion and now you are turning it into a competition, not to mention who is to say those votes are from active players... the people who still play play because they love it for what it is and may leave if you change it)

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post. (thanks but i generally like to use my big people voice when talking formally)
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TarynMai on March 19, 2016, 12:11:20 am
Plz! Don't change SMP! maybe we could just have two worlds! :D A new and old! Everyone can transfer from the two worlds! just some more land to live off of! I do think some of the changes like PVP might me fun! But plz DO NOT wipe the server clear!

We have done that a few times actually, but it isn't just the worlds we were looking to remove, but resetting the economy and such as well. You're definitely allowed your opinion of not liking what we're thinking of doing, but I just wanted to clarify why that probably won't happen, it'd most likely be all or nothing.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 12:15:29 am
Breaking my silence!
Are you guys insane? Really and truly, if you implement this many changes then is it really still Opticraft? It's like if I handed you a lemon and tried to tell you "It's an orange!" The market and economy is half the reason Opticraft is bearable (explained later.) To integrate this points system is ridiculous. Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests. Some people want to dig and build.
I may not play a bunch now, but I'm speaking up for those who may feel that speaking up might cost them their position within the community. I am worried about this as well, but I feel this needs to be said regardless of the repercussions. If I was to fully lose Opticraft I would be sad, but I could not watch you completely change the server and say nothing.
 Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP. I understand this post is your sad attempt at asking people their opinion, but you really should talk to more SMP staff members before going public. Not to mention THE OWNER of the server has countless times expressed that he does not like these sorts of changes, and I'm sure if his opinion has changed at all, it is only because he grows weary of your constant badgering.
You seem to want to change Opticraft and turn it into something that it is not. You went and made a Creative server and decided that it would be cool to throw the Opticraft name on it... Does that make it Opticraft? You tried to make PvP, but that's not Opti either. You are now trying to make it more like a quest based server in that people would have to collect points for "rare blocks" or "protection" but that's still no Opticraft. People like this server because it is survival with a market, sans PvP... Simple. Now granted it needs some cleaning up but not a whole revamp.
Never really told anyone as to why I stopped playing. It's not because I was bored, it's because of you Nick, and your band of goons bringing up drama and always trying to change things. I quit because I grew up and didn't want to deal with cry babies. I know my opinion might not matter because I really don't play much any more, but as stated previously, I only stopped because of Nick and his lackeys.
To the people saying that they would like PvP, go to a PvP server. Nick got us to try PVP on Opticraft, and from what I hear it is almost never used. People saying they got bored because they had too much money? Start over! Don't rely on the market, get stuff manually! The problem is not with Opticraft, it is with the player. If you don't like it, don't play. If it's not your style, then sorry - but this is no reason to fundamentally change Opticraft as a whole.
You post is very uninformed. Couple things.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here.
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding.
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do.

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure  (except years of constant badgering)
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.( i assumed "survival activities" meant quests my bad, and this type of belittling is part of the reason i stopped playing)
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here. (staff should be consulted before going public so issues can be hammered out hence why there are staff forums)
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding. (i will leave this alone but remember when poked enough some people will just roll over)
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do. (again just voicing my opinion and now you are turning it into a competition, not to mention who is to say those votes are from active players... the people who still play play because they love it for what it is and may leave if you change it)

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. We actually talked about it for a while and he said he is definitely in favor of this, but hey, if you want to keep lying to yourself, be my guest.
2. survival activities are like mining, farming, ect...
3. You act like staff is more important that the other players when thats not true. There really is no point in asking staff separately as everyones opinion matters the same.
4. see answer to 1
5. That's fine, I completely support your opinion, but there was no need to attack me with misinformation.

EDIT: Also, it doesn't matter if the players who voted are active or not, because the players who are not active may become active again because of this. All the players opinions matter.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Angelsrage21 on March 19, 2016, 12:23:59 am
First off I would like to start by saying that I've been playing on this server for four years, I love it and it's community very much. When I found out that the idea of the server being wiped was even CONSIDERED I was outraged to say the least.  All the great things people have built and all of the W.I.P.'s just gone because all the rich players who have everything are bored...are you kidding me? I remember back in the day the community was thriving, we had 30 people on at a time and everyone was either gathering or selling stuff on trade chat. Yeah I wish we could go back to those days, but I seriously doubt a complete reset will fix the issue. It's more probable that the reset would anger more people then it would replenish others will's to play on the server again. For example, my friend lolakittygreen and I have been building a specific thing for ALL four of the years we've been playing, if the reset were to occur we would be done with not only Opticraft, but Minecraft.

Thank you for reading what I had to say, have a nice day.

~Angelsrage21
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: codepmman on March 19, 2016, 12:24:39 am
Breaking my silence!
Are you guys insane? Really and truly, if you implement this many changes then is it really still Opticraft? It's like if I handed you a lemon and tried to tell you "It's an orange!" The market and economy is half the reason Opticraft is bearable (explained later.) To integrate this points system is ridiculous. Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests. Some people want to dig and build.
I may not play a bunch now, but I'm speaking up for those who may feel that speaking up might cost them their position within the community. I am worried about this as well, but I feel this needs to be said regardless of the repercussions. If I was to fully lose Opticraft I would be sad, but I could not watch you completely change the server and say nothing.
 Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP. I understand this post is your sad attempt at asking people their opinion, but you really should talk to more SMP staff members before going public. Not to mention THE OWNER of the server has countless times expressed that he does not like these sorts of changes, and I'm sure if his opinion has changed at all, it is only because he grows weary of your constant badgering.
You seem to want to change Opticraft and turn it into something that it is not. You went and made a Creative server and decided that it would be cool to throw the Opticraft name on it... Does that make it Opticraft? You tried to make PvP, but that's not Opti either. You are now trying to make it more like a quest based server in that people would have to collect points for "rare blocks" or "protection" but that's still no Opticraft. People like this server because it is survival with a market, sans PvP... Simple. Now granted it needs some cleaning up but not a whole revamp.
Never really told anyone as to why I stopped playing. It's not because I was bored, it's because of you Nick, and your band of goons bringing up drama and always trying to change things. I quit because I grew up and didn't want to deal with cry babies. I know my opinion might not matter because I really don't play much any more, but as stated previously, I only stopped because of Nick and his lackeys.
To the people saying that they would like PvP, go to a PvP server. Nick got us to try PVP on Opticraft, and from what I hear it is almost never used. People saying they got bored because they had too much money? Start over! Don't rely on the market, get stuff manually! The problem is not with Opticraft, it is with the player. If you don't like it, don't play. If it's not your style, then sorry - but this is no reason to fundamentally change Opticraft as a whole.
You post is very uninformed. Couple things.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here.
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding.
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do.

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure  (except years of constant badgering)
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.( i assumed "survival activities" meant quests my bad, and this type of belittling is part of the reason i stopped playing)
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here. (staff should be consulted before going public so issues can be hammered out hence why there are staff forums)
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding. (i will leave this alone but remember when poked enough some people will just roll over)
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do. (again just voicing my opinion and now you are turning it into a competition, not to mention who is to say those votes are from active players... the people who still play play because they love it for what it is and may leave if you change it)

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. We actually talked about it for a while and he said he is definitely in favor of this, but hey, if you want to keep lying to yourself, be my guest.
2. survival activities are like mining, farming, ect...
3. You act like staff is more important that the other players when thats not true. There really is no point in asking staff separately as everyones opinion matters the same.
4. see answer to 1
5. That's fine, I completely support your opinion, but there was no need to attack me with misinformation.

#5 i would like to address this first as the only attack on you was not misinformed... i left because of you..i dont like you  again my personal opinion
this is posted not because i dont like you but because i feel like changing opticraft is not cool
your #2 point clarify things and i thank you
#3 not that they are more important but you never see information hitting managers at a store at the same time as the cashiers.. a heads up is usually given
same goes for things like this. again to help hammer out details and get concerns out of the way so you could have them help field questions
as for #1 ... see my previous statement... you poke some one long enough they will cave... not saying he doesn't agree just saying... maybe he grows as tired of you as i did

ps this is getting long i will be posting my next response as a new comment
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 12:26:17 am
Breaking my silence!
Are you guys insane? Really and truly, if you implement this many changes then is it really still Opticraft? It's like if I handed you a lemon and tried to tell you "It's an orange!" The market and economy is half the reason Opticraft is bearable (explained later.) To integrate this points system is ridiculous. Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests. Some people want to dig and build.
I may not play a bunch now, but I'm speaking up for those who may feel that speaking up might cost them their position within the community. I am worried about this as well, but I feel this needs to be said regardless of the repercussions. If I was to fully lose Opticraft I would be sad, but I could not watch you completely change the server and say nothing.
 Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP. I understand this post is your sad attempt at asking people their opinion, but you really should talk to more SMP staff members before going public. Not to mention THE OWNER of the server has countless times expressed that he does not like these sorts of changes, and I'm sure if his opinion has changed at all, it is only because he grows weary of your constant badgering.
You seem to want to change Opticraft and turn it into something that it is not. You went and made a Creative server and decided that it would be cool to throw the Opticraft name on it... Does that make it Opticraft? You tried to make PvP, but that's not Opti either. You are now trying to make it more like a quest based server in that people would have to collect points for "rare blocks" or "protection" but that's still no Opticraft. People like this server because it is survival with a market, sans PvP... Simple. Now granted it needs some cleaning up but not a whole revamp.
Never really told anyone as to why I stopped playing. It's not because I was bored, it's because of you Nick, and your band of goons bringing up drama and always trying to change things. I quit because I grew up and didn't want to deal with cry babies. I know my opinion might not matter because I really don't play much any more, but as stated previously, I only stopped because of Nick and his lackeys.
To the people saying that they would like PvP, go to a PvP server. Nick got us to try PVP on Opticraft, and from what I hear it is almost never used. People saying they got bored because they had too much money? Start over! Don't rely on the market, get stuff manually! The problem is not with Opticraft, it is with the player. If you don't like it, don't play. If it's not your style, then sorry - but this is no reason to fundamentally change Opticraft as a whole.
You post is very uninformed. Couple things.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here.
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding.
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do.

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. Optical agreed to this without any pressure  (except years of constant badgering)
2. You state " Not everyone wants to play little games or go on quests." but none of that will even be added showing that you dont even have a clue as to what you are talking about.( i assumed "survival activities" meant quests my bad, and this type of belittling is part of the reason i stopped playing)
3. Staff is being consulted right now, this is consulting them. This is much easier then going around to every member and talking to them individually, this way everyone can voice their opinions here. (staff should be consulted before going public so issues can be hammered out hence why there are staff forums)
4. NOTHING gets done on this server without opticals approval, so your accusations that this is all somehow my doing (Even though we also have two admins) shows incredible bias and misunderstanding. (i will leave this alone but remember when poked enough some people will just roll over)
5. Your arguments fall flat because currently there are more yes votes than no, so clearly players feel the same way as we do. (again just voicing my opinion and now you are turning it into a competition, not to mention who is to say those votes are from active players... the people who still play play because they love it for what it is and may leave if you change it)

Lastly, I would like to applaud you for showing great maturity in your post.
1. We actually talked about it for a while and he said he is definitely in favor of this, but hey, if you want to keep lying to yourself, be my guest.
2. survival activities are like mining, farming, ect...
3. You act like staff is more important that the other players when thats not true. There really is no point in asking staff separately as everyones opinion matters the same.
4. see answer to 1
5. That's fine, I completely support your opinion, but there was no need to attack me with misinformation.

#5 i would like to address this first as the only attack on you was not misinformed... i left because of you..i dont like you  again my personal opinion
this is posted not because i dont like you but because i feel like changing opticraft is not cool
your #2 point clarify things and i thank you
#3 not that they are more important but you never see information hitting managers at a store at the same time as the cashiers.. a heads up is usually given
same goes for things like this. again to help hammer out details and get concerns out of the way so you could have them help field questions
as for #1 ... see my previous statement... you poke some one long enough they will cave... not saying he doesn't agree just saying... maybe he grows as tired of you as i did
And yet again you continue to attack me, grow up.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: gavin on March 19, 2016, 12:26:52 am
First off I would like to start by saying that I've been playing on this server for four years, I love it and it's community very much. When I found out that the idea of the server being wiped was even CONSIDERED I was outraged to say the least.  All the great things people have built and all of the W.I.P.'s just gone because all the rich players who have everything are bored...are you kidding me? I remember back in the day the community was thriving, we had 30 people on at a time and everyone was either gathering or selling stuff on trade chat. Yeah I wish we could go back to those days, but I seriously doubt a complete reset will fix the issue. It's more probable that the reset would anger more people then it would replenish others will's to play on the server again. For example, my friend lolakittygreen and I have been building a specific thing for ALL four of the years we've been playing, if the reset were to occur we would be done with not only Opticraft, but Minecraft.

Thank you for reading what I had to say, have a nice day.

~Angelsrage21
You bring up some valid points, but when PVP was added (a minor change compared to this) the server spiked back up to FIFTY players active for a long period of time.  It isn't just "some rich people" who are bored, but a ton of old players.  I think this major change could bump SMP back up into the 50s + in terms of active players.  That would be awesome!  It does suck that some builds will be lost, but atleast we'll all be starting out together.  I also have been here 4 years and I would prefer the server to thrive and be active than to have some old builds stick around.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Pugabyte on March 19, 2016, 12:27:48 am
1. Kind of. I like Sade's idea of having the old worlds still accessible through a MP server, though I am fully aware of the problem of funding and management. Consider it?

2. From personal experience, player shops can be difficult to promote. Largely because it can be confusing to set them up. If you do this, I strongly, strongly recommend making an easily accessible video, wiki, and/or something similar to assist players in the setup.

Furthermore, I think some serious research and input by someone well versed in economies (that means some college study) should be consulted if possible. This will help in the long-term.

Theres a plugin called HyperConomy. I've not played with it too much, mostly cause I didn't understand it, but maybe it would be perfect for Opti. Check it out. (http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/hyperconomy/) (I am not sure about bugs or incompatibilities, though it seems it is under active development)

3. 'Modes'? Please explain further. Having WG regions scattered throughout the map, alerting players upon entry, maybe. Full on worldwide PvP? No. I joined (and stayed on /in touch with) Opticraft for the relaxing, close community aspect. PvP ruins this.

4. Depends on how you execute this. Could be a huge success, or it could be a fall-flat failure.

5. Same as above.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: codepmman on March 19, 2016, 12:28:19 am
how am i attacking you ?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nothing_ on March 19, 2016, 12:29:07 am
I think this is a bad idea personally, a lot of the remaining players come here for the builds they have made in the past,  and to have some fun playing with their friends. Community has and always will be one of the driving factors as to why this server is still here, and I fear that a complete wipe of SMP would just divide the community further. People want to make changes to attract new players and I'm all for that, but if the cost of new players is losing some of our oldest members and friends is it really worth it?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 12:29:28 am
1. Kind of. I like Sade's idea of having the old worlds still accessible through a MP server, though I am fully aware of the problem of funding and management. Consider it?

2. From personal experience, player shops can be difficult to promote. Largely because it can be confusing to set them up. If you do this, I strongly, strongly recommend making an easily accessible video, wiki, and/or something similar to assist players in the setup.

Furthermore, I think some serious research and input by someone well versed in economies (that means some college study) should be consulted if possible. This will help in the long-term.

Theres a plugin called HyperConomy. I've not played with it too much, mostly cause I didn't understand it, but maybe it would be perfect for Opti. Check it out. (http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/hyperconomy/) (I am not sure about at bugs or incompatibilities)

3. 'Modes'? Please explain further. Having WG regions scattered throughout the map, alerting players upon entry, maybe. Full on worldwide PvP? No. I joined Opticraft for the relaxing, close community aspect. PvP ruins this.

4. Depends on how you execute this. Could be a huge success, or it could be a fall-flat failure.

5. Same as above.
Pvp modes would be done on pre defined maps, no world wide pvp, no pvp zones. Just pre set up arenas.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Pugabyte on March 19, 2016, 12:32:17 am
Pvp modes would be done on pre defined maps, no world wide pvp, no pvp zones. Just pre set up arenas.

Better. Optional is best.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TarynMai on March 19, 2016, 12:35:04 am
First off I would like to start by saying that I've been playing on this server for four years, I love it and it's community very much. When I found out that the idea of the server being wiped was even CONSIDERED I was outraged to say the least.  All the great things people have built and all of the W.I.P.'s just gone because all the rich players who have everything are bored...are you kidding me? I remember back in the day the community was thriving, we had 30 people on at a time and everyone was either gathering or selling stuff on trade chat. Yeah I wish we could go back to those days, but I seriously doubt a complete reset will fix the issue. It's more probable that the reset would anger more people then it would replenish others will's to play on the server again. For example, my friend lolakittygreen and I have been building a specific thing for ALL four of the years we've been playing, if the reset were to occur we would be done with not only Opticraft, but Minecraft.

Thank you for reading what I had to say, have a nice day.

~Angelsrage21

Your opinion is yours, but if it helps, we're hoping to try to at least get a downloadable version of the map, so you two could set up a small server together with it and continue building (if that is what ends up happening). I don't think any of us really want to completely delete the maps without letting people access them somehow.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 12:37:41 am
I think this is a bad idea personally, a lot of the remaining players come here for the builds they have made in the past,  and to have some fun playing with their friends. Community has and always will be one of the driving factors as to why this server is still here, and I fear that a complete wipe of SMP would just divide the community further. People want to make changes to attract new players and I'm all for that, but if the cost of new players is losing some of our oldest members and friends is it really worth it?
If everyone stays for the community, wouldn't they all stay no matter what then? If the main reason they stay is not for the gameplay, but the community, why would they leave due to a gameplay change?

The fact is, our players numbers have been steadily dropping, if you guys want to keep things the way they are, we are all for that.  All this is supposed to be is us seeing if a change would be preferred. If it is not preferred, we wont change it.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Leafolozzy on March 19, 2016, 12:42:47 am
Please don't get rid of the economy system. We need minor changes.
          1. We should fix the market; no one (informed) uses it. People just trade with others. You can sell like 3 things at unfair prices.
          2. We should fix the inflation problem. Instead of making dirt at a 60 buy price, it should be a 1 buy price. The reason is people brag about their 1 million dollars, which is not particularly a lot.
          3. We should somehow prevent people from mass farming. I don't want to discourage economic growth, but if people just soak up money through farms, take out masses of space, and aft there for hours, the games just not fun.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TarynMai on March 19, 2016, 12:44:55 am
Please don't get rid of the economy system. We need minor changes.
          1. We should fix the market; no one (informed) uses it. People just trade with others. You can sell like 3 things at unfair prices.
          2. We should fix the inflation problem. Instead of making dirt at a 60 buy price, it should be a 1 buy price. The reason is people brag about their 1 million dollars, which is not particularly a lot.
          3. We should somehow prevent people from mass farming. I don't want to discourage economic growth, but if people just soak up money through farms, take out masses of space, and aft there for hours, the games just not fun.

1. That is what we were thinking - letting people trade with others.
2. I dont know how much that would help, but sure.
3. We've been trying that, there's always new farms people make and new ways to do that lol

Are you okay with the world removal then?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 19, 2016, 12:45:38 am
My turn to say my opinion - agree or don't, here it is:

You're saying that players you've spoken to have explained why they "stopped playing." What you're not taking into account, is the people that have come to SMP since you've all decided it was too "stale" and the people who stayed since before you left. Sure things like a delisting of warps, and cleaning up the economy a little might be in order -- but completely disintegrating everything your current SMP regulars love about it, is just cruel and inconsiderate. By doing this you're saying that only the people who have stopped caring about/loving SMP matter, and those who are loyal do not.

But in case this was not specific enough let us go further into detail. No point system could replace the ease that the market creates, especially in periods when there's new updates to Minecraft overall and we're left without naturally spawning new items that we want to try/use. It also helps create a more build-friendly style of SMP, which is why the regulars stay. Removing all the worlds - especially while so many of us are mid-big builds with each other, is beyond insulting and rude. And the argument that building is for creative, is completely invalid. Building where the blocks are constantly accessible without any form of survival playing (either by trying to make money in market, or legitimately going out to mine the blocks) is more stale to me than what some people feel the SMP server has become. This market and block collecting system builds a sense of community with all the players working together to achieve their goals of the time. So honestly creative does not replace this style of playing, not by a long shot. The PVP world you attempted to implement has had little to no success, and I bet you can't imagine why? Because we - the people who remain loyal to SMP are loyal because of how it is NOW. We don't like/need to try and get the best armor and kill each other - or have people kill us while we're trying to enjoy the game. You are proposing fundamental changes to what makes Opticraft this amazing community we all love and enjoy, without even really being involved with it much anymore. You've lost touch with how much we all love and enjoy the server, and I think these changes will ensure the end of Opticraft.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Leafolozzy on March 19, 2016, 12:47:32 am
Please don't get rid of the economy system. We need minor changes.
          1. We should fix the market; no one (informed) uses it. People just trade with others. You can sell like 3 things at unfair prices.
          2. We should fix the inflation problem. Instead of making dirt at a 60 buy price, it should be a 1 buy price. The reason is people brag about their 1 million dollars, which is not particularly a lot.
          3. We should somehow prevent people from mass farming. I don't want to discourage economic growth, but if people just soak up money through farms, take out masses of space, and aft there for hours, the games just not fun.

1. That is what we were thinking - letting people trade with others.
2. I dont know how much that would help, but sure.
3. We've been trying that, there's always new farms people make and new ways to do that lol

Are you okay with the world removal then?

Yeah I'm completely sick of these worlds. Also, will the new worlds be 1.9?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: HoaxZ on March 19, 2016, 12:50:07 am
I know i am a new comer and only been playing just over a month but if we all get a say then id like to give a little input.
i do not think a total restart is a good idea. i have played on other SMP servers and over time they get more complicated and new things added and it changes the game too much. i like this server as it is survival. if i fall i die, if i loose my stuff its gone forever. if i want to build something i gather the resources. i play my game like i would on a single player world. the added bonus is the people who play with you. these members that are active daily i have come to know are great people and a good laugh. this is why i enjoy this server. i can get on with building, chat and help each other out. i don't use the market and think your cost for a beacon is far too high.  the servers have been up for a long time and a lot of the resources have been mined to where your searching hours for a block or ore. a new server would be good and a fresh start, fresh resources, fresh ideas. BUT i think you should keep the old servers maybe separate them so you cannot take items between the two servers but have chat open between them so people can all talk no matter the server. there are not many changes that will help bring in new people. the only way to do that is word of mouth and advertising. the reason servers are dying out is players are going to minigame sites instead for a quick bit of fun. you have had new members join and as one of them i like the server how it is and after a month i feel i have built a lot and do not wish to see it wiped even if there is a world download, id like to finish it on the server. if you made a new 1.9 server with some not all new implements i will give it a try but if it is too different from what it is now i will stick to playing the server i am on now. i would like to get a start on a new server, work with others to collect resources and build things together. i think when it comes to farms its nice when their is no mob cap but when people leave and they are no longer used it would be good if they put in an off button so it is no longer in use. but that is my opinion. over all please don't delete the worlds or reset them, a world download isnt the same though a nice thing to offer. if you want a new server make one and implement a few changes, if its too different people will stay on the older ones and some new people may join but if you delete the old ones i see you loosing the old devoted members. its a hard choice but if you can, do both and give the older players the option of playing the old worlds still. as for the new im sure people will give it a chance. but the old servers could do with updating to  1,9 aswell just for the new blocks and ideas they can put into their builds. also i enjoy seeing others builds. with the hall of fame id like to see more builds in it that i can visit for inspiration and admire their work. without the servers we wouldn't have that.
anyway those are my thoughts, thank you for reading them.

HoaxZ
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nothing_ on March 19, 2016, 12:50:51 am
I think this is a bad idea personally, a lot of the remaining players come here for the builds they have made in the past,  and to have some fun playing with their friends. Community has and always will be one of the driving factors as to why this server is still here, and I fear that a complete wipe of SMP would just divide the community further. People want to make changes to attract new players and I'm all for that, but if the cost of new players is losing some of our oldest members and friends is it really worth it?
If everyone stays for the community, wouldn't they all stay no matter what then? If the main reason they stay is not for the gameplay, but the community, why would they leave due to a gameplay change?

The fact is, our players numbers have been steadily dropping, if you guys want to keep things the way they are, we are all for that.  All this is supposed to be is us seeing if a change would be preferred. If it is not preferred, we wont change it.

Like I  said, they come for the builds and community that helped build them. Personally I see those builds as part of the community. Its like when people protest an old rec center being torn down. Sure the community that enjoyed the rec center will still be there after the change, but the place where they built memories and friendships will be gone. It might be just a server but nostalgia is a powerful thing, and without it a lot of people don't have any reason to come back.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TarynMai on March 19, 2016, 12:56:50 am
Please don't get rid of the economy system. We need minor changes.
          1. We should fix the market; no one (informed) uses it. People just trade with others. You can sell like 3 things at unfair prices.
          2. We should fix the inflation problem. Instead of making dirt at a 60 buy price, it should be a 1 buy price. The reason is people brag about their 1 million dollars, which is not particularly a lot.
          3. We should somehow prevent people from mass farming. I don't want to discourage economic growth, but if people just soak up money through farms, take out masses of space, and aft there for hours, the games just not fun.

1. That is what we were thinking - letting people trade with others.
2. I dont know how much that would help, but sure.
3. We've been trying that, there's always new farms people make and new ways to do that lol

Are you okay with the world removal then?

Yeah I'm completely sick of these worlds. Also, will the new worlds be 1.9?

They would be, yeah.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 01:00:02 am
My turn to say my opinion - agree or don't, here it is:

You're saying that players you've spoken to have explained why they "stopped playing." What you're not taking into account, is the people that have come to SMP since you've all decided it was too "stale" and the people who stayed since before you left. Sure things like a delisting of warps, and cleaning up the economy a little might be in order -- but completely disintegrating everything your current SMP regulars love about it, is just cruel and inconsiderate. By doing this you're saying that only the people who have stopped caring about/loving SMP matter, and those who are loyal do not.

But in case this was not specific enough let us go further into detail. No point system could replace the ease that the market creates, especially in periods when there's new updates to Minecraft overall and we're left without naturally spawning new items that we want to try/use. It also helps create a more build-friendly style of SMP, which is why the regulars stay. Removing all the worlds - especially while so many of us are mid-big builds with each other, is beyond insulting and rude. And the argument that building is for creative, is completely invalid. Building where the blocks are constantly accessible without any form of survival playing (either by trying to make money in market, or legitimately going out to mine the blocks) is more stale to me than what some people feel the SMP server has become. This market and block collecting system builds a sense of community with all the players working together to achieve their goals of the time. So honestly creative does not replace this style of playing, not by a long shot. The PVP world you attempted to implement has had little to no success, and I bet you can't imagine why? Because we - the people who remain loyal to SMP are loyal because of how it is NOW. We don't like/need to try and get the best armor and kill each other - or have people kill us while we're trying to enjoy the game. You are proposing fundamental changes to what makes Opticraft this amazing community we all love and enjoy, without even really being involved with it much anymore. You've lost touch with how much we all love and enjoy the server, and I think these changes will ensure the end of Opticraft.
All of this makes sense, but I'm not saying anyone matters more, that's the point of the poll...... If the people who play now outweigh the players like the ones we talked to then it will reflect in the poll.
Also, when we introduced a very poor version of pvp, player numbers jumped, so saying it didn't work at all isn't correct.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 19, 2016, 01:16:38 am
All of this makes sense, but I'm not saying anyone matters more, that's the point of the poll...... If the people who play now outweigh the players like the ones we talked to then it will reflect in the poll.
Also, when we introduced a very poor version of pvp, player numbers jumped, so saying it didn't work at all isn't correct.

Fair enough - however, if the people who have left outweighed the people who remain. Then those of us who love and adore SMP for what it is are just supposed to watch it all go away and change? I can honestly say I've seen tonight in chat, and I feel myself that it would definitely be a driving factor in a lot of peoples' departure from Opticraft - thus permanently altering or losing the current community altogether.

True the numbers did spike, but not permanently. The community that stays, that lasts is not seemingly interested in PvP.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 01:28:27 am
All of this makes sense, but I'm not saying anyone matters more, that's the point of the poll...... If the people who play now outweigh the players like the ones we talked to then it will reflect in the poll.
Also, when we introduced a very poor version of pvp, player numbers jumped, so saying it didn't work at all isn't correct.

Fair enough - however, if the people who have left outweighed the people who remain. Then those of us who love and adore SMP for what it is are just supposed to watch it all go away and change? I can honestly say I've seen tonight in chat, and I feel myself that it would definitely be a driving factor in a lot of peoples' departure from Opticraft - thus permanently altering or losing the current community altogether.

True the numbers did spike, but not permanently. The community that stays, that lasts is not seemingly interested in PvP.
Well if the people who want to see the change outnumber those who are left, it would be saying those who are left are more important if we didn't change wouldn't it? It just sucks to see how few players play now days, sure the community is nice, but that doesnt pay the server bills.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 19, 2016, 01:31:06 am
All of this makes sense, but I'm not saying anyone matters more, that's the point of the poll...... If the people who play now outweigh the players like the ones we talked to then it will reflect in the poll.
Also, when we introduced a very poor version of pvp, player numbers jumped, so saying it didn't work at all isn't correct.

Fair enough - however, if the people who have left outweighed the people who remain. Then those of us who love and adore SMP for what it is are just supposed to watch it all go away and change? I can honestly say I've seen tonight in chat, and I feel myself that it would definitely be a driving factor in a lot of peoples' departure from Opticraft - thus permanently altering or losing the current community altogether.

True the numbers did spike, but not permanently. The community that stays, that lasts is not seemingly interested in PvP.
Well if the people who want to see the change outnumber those who are left, it would be saying those who are left are more important if we didn't change wouldn't it? It just sucks to see how few players play now days, sure the community is nice, but that doesnt pay the server bills.

True. But the people who don't play won't be hurt/upset by a loss... Either way change or no change, the server is going to take or maintain a deficit, in the end you just have to decide which is the lesser of two evils, or maybe come up with alternate changes. Creative brought great numbers why not a separate PvPSMP entity thus making everyone happy? I don't know. But you asked why we voted no, so now you know.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 01:35:37 am
All of this makes sense, but I'm not saying anyone matters more, that's the point of the poll...... If the people who play now outweigh the players like the ones we talked to then it will reflect in the poll.
Also, when we introduced a very poor version of pvp, player numbers jumped, so saying it didn't work at all isn't correct.

Fair enough - however, if the people who have left outweighed the people who remain. Then those of us who love and adore SMP for what it is are just supposed to watch it all go away and change? I can honestly say I've seen tonight in chat, and I feel myself that it would definitely be a driving factor in a lot of peoples' departure from Opticraft - thus permanently altering or losing the current community altogether.

True the numbers did spike, but not permanently. The community that stays, that lasts is not seemingly interested in PvP.
Well if the people who want to see the change outnumber those who are left, it would be saying those who are left are more important if we didn't change wouldn't it? It just sucks to see how few players play now days, sure the community is nice, but that doesnt pay the server bills.

True. But the people who don't play won't be hurt/upset by a loss... Either way change or no change, the server is going to take or maintain a deficit, in the end you just have to decide which is the lesser of two evils, or maybe come up with alternate changes. Creative brought great numbers why not a separate PvPSMP entity thus making everyone happy? I don't know. But you asked why we voted no, so now you know.
Another smp server would just further split the current smp server leading to even less players. And I am glad you explained why you voted no.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 19, 2016, 01:54:29 am
I voted no for several reasons

one I have major builds in progress and they would be lost, loading them to realms so I can continue to play on them with my family and friends isn't the same, I have tried realms, I have tried other servers, but I stuck with opti because of the market, and the builds and the people who play on here with me.

When I first started I barely spoke to people, now I love to work with other people on their builds and how they pop by to see what I am doing and lend a hand here and there.  My sign on Astoria says brought to you by me penguin, codepmman and "the Opticraft community" because I am sure most active players had a hand in some feature or piece of that build.

I also spent a year mining and gathering supplies in order to support the builds I am working on.    I have built FREE access farms to share with the community of active players, I do not hoard money, I make a point of donating to the server on a semi regular basis.  I do all this because overall I much prefer this server as is than any other I have seen.

I am not in favour of these changes. I like to mine, I like to build, and for some blocks I prefer to buy. 

I am in favour of alternatives that would help clean up the current server and I am willing to help wherever possible, just show me what you need done.

We cannot please all people in all things, maybe instead of changing the server we should look at promoting it.

Thanks for listening

Roza
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: optical on March 19, 2016, 02:15:35 am
I figured I'd share my thoughts on this too.
This current poll was briefly discussed yesterday, so I did have some input on this before it went up, however the ideas here are not concrete and I do not necessarily support all of them. I do think it is worth having a discussion around this, so lets continue along that avenue.

I don't support the idea of wiping all the worlds and starting fresh - I never have and I've spoke on this multiple times in the past, so this should be no surprise. I do however think the economy is dysfunctional and needs to be completely revamped. These are the two major gameplay changes that I think would matter the most. I am not sure what PvP ideas are being thrown around, but I don't think PvP outside of specific areas or events would work - we'd need to really flesh that one out first.

I think that bungeecord is the way to go, but getting a fully functional bungee system going up that works seamlessly (single-server chat, warps, ranks, etc) is going to require a fair chunk of work from myself and probably deekay as we've got a lot of crossover in systems that we'd have to align and re-architect in order to work within a distributed environment. Never the less, its a very good idea.

Server promotion is another point I see being brought up, and right fully so. We have little promotion now, and the SMP voting system is outdated and broken. Aligning the voting across servers and fixing the rewards up would likely result in a measurable growth in the community.

I am sure we can improve the player protection system, but I am not sure on any details here - needs a lot more though I think.

Hope that sheds some light on my thoughts. Feel free to ask me questions about anything I didn't cover, or any areas I did that need more clarification :)
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Tobs on March 19, 2016, 02:51:41 am
I feel while Bungeecord is a big task, it's the last thing that would make the servers feel "complete" again - just gotta find the time I suppose. World wipes I have always been on the fence about; on one hand it'd be nice for fresh worlds and everyone to start on the same level, on the other the nostalgia and evolution of people's builds - probably lean more to fresh, but if people desperately don't want this I certainly wouldn't want to force. I definitely would like new 1.9 world(s), but I don't like the idea of it being 'used' purely for resources, adding new worlds on top of these seems messy. As for the End, because of the big updates in 1.9 I'm wondering people's ideas on a reset of the End dimension?

PvP was simply to be an improvement on the current (terrible) system, nothing game-changing but hopefully more interesting than what we botched together - I guess similar to your plugin idea years ago, something that isn't tedious, but instead more fun.

I believe Nick or Deekay had some pretty different possible ideas for an alternative to what is the current economy, it is also something that has always been a bit ,"eh" and disjointed. This was one of the first thoughts and would tie in well with a wipe, but as that is pretty much off the cards, finding new ways for this to be worked into the current setup would be good.

Edit: It's 3am, alright?!
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Pew1998 on March 19, 2016, 03:28:29 am
Count me in. I love the ideas listed above (1-5). Even a fresh world would be a new adventure. I say go for it.

Edit - With 1.9 having quite a few changes, I believe this would be a great time to try something like this. Possibly have a mini-server set up to experiment and see how these changes would work, along with the feedback.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TooMuch4U on March 19, 2016, 04:19:47 am
Pls change the hashtag to #SurvivalRevival it sounds more cheesy.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: DeeKay on March 19, 2016, 07:18:33 am
Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP.

I understand this was resolved privately and I'm not trying to spark another argument but merely get my own word in publicly on this topic and this topic alone.
My involvement behind the scenes was purely development related. It was simply my way of extending my assistance to Optical and everyone else, and discussing ways in which the development of the server would be impacted if these type of changes were to be put in place.

I understand you felt it was maybe unfair that others missed out on the discussion, people who probably deserve it more than I did. But I don't think my rank on SMP should dictate who/what I talk to/about, but instead my reputation as a whole.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: 100penguin. on March 19, 2016, 08:57:52 am
So here are my thoughts. I voted No in the poll, then realised that there was a 'Support some of them' button.  So that sucks.

- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of pvp modes
- Addition of a player trading system
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
- Change to a player defined protection field system

1: I've never believed in this idea, and feel it is a controversial subject to just put out there. People will naturally go apeshit if you propose a 'Complete wipe'. My thoughts though, are that new worlds would be a great idea, and I support Toby with the idea of a 1.9 world, and the wiping of the end. The latter of which could possibly be extended to the nether. I feel that the majority of the ruining of the SMP economy came from exploitation of the nether and end realms, and also they are the 2 worlds out of the 3 (Nether, End and Overworld) that have the least number of buildings in, as they are primarily used for farms - This I feel is especially true of the most recent set of worlds. In short: More new worlds, not bulldozing the old ones. If this occurred, I believe many players [including myself] would leave; I've seen it happen too many times, and Optical's policy is an important part of why I chose opticraft in the first place as being a good place to hang around.

2: The economy sucks, and having had discussions with many players and staff members I feel I am not alone in this feeling. I am in true support of a shakeup, or even a complete removal. As an operator, I can use creative mode, however naturally I am not allowed to just 'give out items'. The current market however does exactly this, flooding the economy with 'bogus' items that never existed legit. Therefore, I feel the idea of a trading hall or whatever would work very nicely indeed. Money doesn't mean anything significant to those who have it nowadays, and thus, if it were lost then the huge material wealth of those players would tide them over nicely. A trading would definitely improve things (Or at least, not make things worse...)

3: I love PVP, and play it a lot. However I am aware of the opinions of others in this matter. I agree with Nick about the addition of PVP being purely Arena based. As a staff member I'm sure that 'general' PVP would generate far more troubles than it's worth. As an idea though, well worth looking into. Small objections however explained further down...

4: A player trading system would be the next obvious step in the whole market conundrum. However, importantly, this idea could easily lead to a market failure again [Market in this sense referring to the hypothetical trading ground, rather than the physical /warp market]. Those who were able to 'Mass produce' items would be free to set up their own shops, and set their prices ridiculously low. If this were the case, it'd allow people to become the moguls of certain things, which would essentially reproduce the troubles of the financial based economy. My solution? A minimum personal shop price for every item; none of this 1 dirt for 8 diamonds shit - A ballache to setup, but much easier than having to go through this enormous ballache of a process of 'discussing' everything new to the ends of the earth [Not that this is wrong of course, it should be discussed]. I volunteer to help with this process if necessary.

5: This is a tricky one. I like the idea, but don't really see the point all that much, because I know it's being implemented on Optiquest. I have no objections either way, but it does seem a little unnecessary, especially if we're trying to make this entire process as simple as possible for DK, Nick, and anyone else involved in the coding.

6: This is an interesting concept. No idea how it'd be done. Griefing happens, whether you have protections or not. Something I have seen done on the tekkit server I frequented (as with many others) Is the golden axe scheme - mock my stupidity if you wish - however the interesting point in this concept was that the number of blocks  you could claim was proportional (and increased) by voting. This could kill two birds with one stone, by increasing popularity, and somehow decoupling protection ability [Or more, griefing susceptibility] from finances.

So there we have it. In short, Number 1, definitely not, or penguin leaves. However new worlds yes. All the others are relatively on the fence, and my opinions are swayed by personal gain, ease of use (and coding) and use as a staff member. I'm glad I've been consulted now, but next time, a little earlier please :p

Disregarding my opinions for a second, I implore everyone who replies to  this thread to respect the opinions of others. Some of this thread has been a little geurilla - I know people have 'strong' opinions about all this as do I, but please accept that this is a democratic process. If all my opinions crash and burn,  then so be it, because it'll [hopefully] have been a fair process that caused them to do so.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: blueted12345 on March 19, 2016, 10:09:30 am
So I voted "some of the changes", because some of them are obviously a big step forward and the way to go, however some in my opinion are moving so far away from "opticraft" that they should be seriously thought about.

1) Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
There's obviously countless hours put into these worlds; and just deleting them doesn't sound to me like a good option. The fun is exploring these worlds with your friends, not on singleplayer.

2) Simplification or removal of the economy system.
I think simplifying the economy would be good, making trading more focused on player to player, rather than player to market. I think the economy is one of the reasons why SMP gets boring, instead of having to go and do things in survival, there's pretty much everything at the market.

3) Addition of pvp modes
Personally, I like the idea of a free roaming pvp world. As well as giving you something to do, in my opinion it would amplify the excitment. If that's not possible then better pvp would be the next best option in my opinion. I feel like the arena pvp has been tried, and now, pretty much no one uses it - maybe due to it no being the best. Maybe have some sort of kit system? Whenever asking for PvP battles I usually get the response "don't have any armour". Another thing that i've seen been successfull on other servers is some sort of mini game. Eg. OITC arenas. However that could quite easily get boring quickly which is why I really think a full pvp world would be a good shout.

4)Addition of a player trading system
Something like /auc or chest shops that players can set up on there own, i've seen that work well on other servers.

5) Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
This sounds like a really good idea to me. Actually getting points for playing and doing different things rather than just sitting at a farm. This would make actual survival minecraft have a purpose on Opti. Rather than economy being the main aim. Maybe have like a villager trading system where you can buy things with "OptiPoints" (Just as an example). This is one of the ideas that I really would support.

6) Change to a player defined protection field system
This wouldn't be the most important issue in my opinion; grief can be sorted by staff. But a player defined protection system could work in a pvp world as it gives a player some sort of safety space. However if the worlds are just going to stay as Non - Pvp, non-raiding this seems somewhat pointless to me.

So,
In Favour of:
 - Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of pvp modes
- Addition of a player trading system
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.

Not in favour of:
- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)

And the protection I really don't have an opinion on.
Thanks ~Ted
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 19, 2016, 01:04:14 pm
with a player trading system replacing market I have concerns, what if no one else is on?  How will that work?  Some of the prices people have in their shops are crazy.  I prefer going to market what about limiting balances to a max amount?  I would really need more information on exactly how it work.

I would loose access to the ender farm I currently use if the end and the nether were regenerated, but I think its a necessary step with 1.9 as the new blocks are all there.

Every change and refresh has a cost, its a question of finding the right balance between cost vs benefit.

the cost of loosing all materials supplies, buildings, etc for a complete refresh will be paid by the active members, as an active member I don't think its worth it.  I don't want a complete refresh but I am willing to help out with other changes and open to discussion.

I also believe that you can do anything you want to change the server, even a refresh and it wont make a real difference unless you have a proper promotion plan in place.  What good are all the changes if no one knows?

Roza
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: codepmman on March 19, 2016, 02:01:53 pm
Also, kind of interested why only one operator was consulted when there are several that still play on the server regularly, and not to single him out, but generally this is a staff decision and from what I know, Deekay is not currently staff on SMP. As shown in the past, your rank on SMP does not carry over to Creative, and so Creative ranks should not carry over to SMP.

I understand this was resolved privately and I'm not trying to spark another argument but merely get my own word in publicly on this topic and this topic alone.
My involvement behind the scenes was purely development related. It was simply my way of extending my assistance to Optical and everyone else, and discussing ways in which the development of the server would be impacted if these type of changes were to be put in place.

I understand you felt it was maybe unfair that others missed out on the discussion, people who probably deserve it more than I did. But I don't think my rank on SMP should dictate who/what I talk to/about, but instead my reputation as a whole.

sorry to implement you in this deekay but i feel like the way this was announced to everyone before being announced privately was a poor decision i felt like more operators and mods should of been notified first so they could learn more and possibly help with the fall out instead of nick yourself tobs and alicia having to do damage control alone. we were not informed until much later of your role in this. i did not realise your level of technical understanding and your rank on the server in question made its weird to me that you were so involved when others of higher smp ranks were not made aware. This has nothing to do with who Deserves it more... nobody Deserves anything more... we are all here to play and have fun.  you deserve it because you offered to help. it is appreciated that you want to put time into the server and give back. This reference had everything to do with the format of the announcement. i would like to publicly say that people are feeling like i called them out in my post but i used them as examples.  i used deekay because my understanding of his roll was not correct, not with misinformation just lack of information, and i used nick to show that not everyone leaves the server because they grow bored. Nick had talked to a very select number of people and that was the impression he got.  I would also like to publicly thank Nick for allowing us to put our differences aside and have a meaningful conversation where we discussed some of the issues i presented. although we still do not see eye to eye on a lot of things we agree to disagree on them and as this is just an announcement of POSSIBLE changes we felt that the discussion needed to go no further. I am however glad to see that my MAJOR concerns with the whole nuke and pave idea are reflections of what opti himself disagrees with. which intern causes me to relax a little.

just a recap
I am STRONGLY OPPOSED to wiping old worlds off the server
I am in favour of a economy revamp but one in which a market is still available for those who wish to use it
I am in favour of PVP as long as it doesn't affect people on SMP who do not wish to participate
i am in favour of a world of warcraft style of player auction system (can be explained in more detail if needed)
i had misunderstandings due to lack of information presented in original post on things like the points system and how to get points

Again thanks to Nick for explaining things to me a little better and if there are further questions i would be more than happy to help field them!
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 04:42:20 pm
Well at this point, getting rid of the world's is off the table.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 19, 2016, 05:02:04 pm
I also believe that you can do anything you want to change the server, even a refresh and it wont make a real difference unless you have a proper promotion plan in place.  What good are all the changes if no one knows?

I have to agree with this point made by Roza - and hope that more than just Optical are thinking about it. There really is no point in making any "improvements" if no one knows to come check them out.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 05:10:50 pm
I also believe that you can do anything you want to change the server, even a refresh and it wont make a real difference unless you have a proper promotion plan in place.  What good are all the changes if no one knows?

I have to agree with this point made by Roza - and hope that more than just Optical are thinking about it. There really is no point in making any "improvements" if no one knows to come check them out.
advertising costs money, a lot of money actually. So no, we have not thought about it at all as optical is the only one to make the decision to advertise.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 19, 2016, 05:35:10 pm
advertising costs money, a lot of money actually. So no, we have not thought about it at all as optical is the only one to make the decision to advertise.

Except that Optical is always open to ideas, and if the point of this is to bring up ideas to raise your player count - then perhaps people could be coming up with advertising ideas to help. Maybe new perk ideas to help pay for advertising, fixing the voting like he mentioned etc. Point is, other people might have some golden nugget ideas. Advertising doesn't have to be on a pay-ad basis. There's social media, and all sorts of other resources that I'm sure people could come up with if we asked them about this point too. Like Roza said - what's the point in all the hard work and changes, if no one will see them?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 19, 2016, 06:19:34 pm
I agree with everything in the original post, as well as some other ideas that people have had. There should be a big push on advertising, but that has always been brought up and nothing ever done about it. It is entirely Optical's choice as well. Another good idea I've read was from penguin, to link voting to the allotted land you can protect. Voting should be linked to more things rather than item rewards. DK's voting points system where you can choose what to spend your points on is an interesting concept, and again, doesn't have to be limited to just buying items.

I'd like to see a resource world implemented. There are quite a few advantages to this and I cant really think of any disadvantages other than the majority of the mining wont be done in the main worlds. The resource world would allow the main worlds to look much nicer as they are for building and exploring only. The resource world would also regenerate regularly but also randomize so that players can not memorize where the resources are located. The goal of this is to not end up with worlds like old guest further down the road.

I'd also like to see farms regulated much more.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 19, 2016, 06:41:33 pm
advertising costs money, a lot of money actually. So no, we have not thought about it at all as optical is the only one to make the decision to advertise.

Except that Optical is always open to ideas, and if the point of this is to bring up ideas to raise your player count - then perhaps people could be coming up with advertising ideas to help. Maybe new perk ideas to help pay for advertising, fixing the voting like he mentioned etc. Point is, other people might have some golden nugget ideas. Advertising doesn't have to be on a pay-ad basis. There's social media, and all sorts of other resources that I'm sure people could come up with if we asked them about this point too. Like Roza said - what's the point in all the hard work and changes, if no one will see them?
I understand that, but it just feels weird to me to attempt to tell someone how to spend their money, maybe it's just me being weird lol
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 19, 2016, 07:06:36 pm
I have seen some people try to show the server in videos and some were good, some not so much.  Creating a few videos and uploading to U tube - is there a cost?  if the video goes viral, how many people have now heard and seen images of the server?  Your very talented and there are a lot of talented members in the community, how about putting a group together to try to come up with free advertising and promotional methods, developing a plan and once approved implementing it?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 20, 2016, 12:40:34 am
advertising costs money, a lot of money actually. So no, we have not thought about it at all as optical is the only one to make the decision to advertise.

Except that Optical is always open to ideas, and if the point of this is to bring up ideas to raise your player count - then perhaps people could be coming up with advertising ideas to help. Maybe new perk ideas to help pay for advertising, fixing the voting like he mentioned etc. Point is, other people might have some golden nugget ideas. Advertising doesn't have to be on a pay-ad basis. There's social media, and all sorts of other resources that I'm sure people could come up with if we asked them about this point too. Like Roza said - what's the point in all the hard work and changes, if no one will see them?
I understand that, but it just feels weird to me to attempt to tell someone how to spend their money, maybe it's just me being weird lol

LOL!! I get it Nick, that IS weird. But that's why they're ideas - not demands. Get the great minds of this server come up with some ideas and bring them to Optical - whether they be free or cost money. Let him then decide what he does/does not like. He's very reasonable and will hear anything out as long as there's a logical reason for it -- or at least that's my experience.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: codepmman on March 20, 2016, 12:41:55 am
Well at this point, getting rid of the world's is off the table.

with this change and some further discussion on some other points i think that this is now reasonable
would like to formally change my vote from outright no to i support some of them ...
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:44:31 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 20, 2016, 03:59:33 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
I like the market idea along with the idea of player shops at the market too.


I would also like to add a thought to the whole wipe thing. I already know it's off the table now, but I wonder how this would work in the eyes of the people who were against a world wipe but for a change to the economy.

I'm just curious as to what difference would that really make if the goal is to make survival more survival based, but wealthy players keep their money from the old system, and the worlds, with all their farms and all, are retained from the old system. (unless I'm misunderstanding something about all this). Ya the economy would be different, but so? If everything else is unchanged then we have older players with an advantage over newer ones (at least in terms of survivability) due to them profiting under the old system.

Not that I necessarily think the wealthy should have their money taken away, but I think and all or nothing approach would make more sense than having one or the other (between world wipe and economy revamp). At least to me it'd make more sense to either have a complete fresh start, or keep going the way it is. Buy idk, perhaps, again, I'm misunderstanding something.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: HoaxZ on March 20, 2016, 05:13:08 am
advertising costs money, a lot of money actually. So no, we have not thought about it at all as optical is the only one to make the decision to advertise.

Except that Optical is always open to ideas, and if the point of this is to bring up ideas to raise your player count - then perhaps people could be coming up with advertising ideas to help. Maybe new perk ideas to help pay for advertising, fixing the voting like he mentioned etc. Point is, other people might have some golden nugget ideas. Advertising doesn't have to be on a pay-ad basis. There's social media, and all sorts of other resources that I'm sure people could come up with if we asked them about this point too. Like Roza said - what's the point in all the hard work and changes, if no one will see them?
I understand that, but it just feels weird to me to attempt to tell someone how to spend their money, maybe it's just me being weird lol

LOL!! I get it Nick, that IS weird. But that's why they're ideas - not demands. Get the great minds of this server come up with some ideas and bring them to Optical - whether they be free or cost money. Let him then decide what he does/does not like. He's very reasonable and will hear anything out as long as there's a logical reason for it -- or at least that's my experience.

the best form of advertising is word of mouth, yes many dont want to play on an old world full of abandoned projects so a new world is a good idea. But to spread the word you can tell friends/family/acquaintances/colleagues at work or if you see people chatting in comments on youtube or twitter point them in Opticrafts direction.  the biggest advertisement is free and is us. we can all spread good things about this server and discuss it with others. if all of us do these things where possible on top of actually voting when we click the vote button (by the way the one that ask's for a maths answer doesn't accept the correct answer) we can maybe bring in a few more people and those who come in we try to encourage them to go out and advertise to their friends and family to bring in more people (obviously dont say do advertise just ask them to inform anyone about us) once more people come and more advertise you will get people come and go but once a member and into memberworld we hope those ones stay and make great members. the idea is we are all responsible for advertising and its free. if the staff can think of ways to help with links or banners or anything that will be great. something that will catch peoples eye and make them try. nothing complicated as when they join they need to feel as if they are welcomed and belong. anyway that is not part of advertising, but we all can push out and advertise anywhere that is free. then if you think of other cheap ways on cheap sites that is up to you staff and Optical but that is the best free form i know of and if we all do it, it does work well.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: gavin on March 20, 2016, 05:51:30 am
I'm just curious as to what difference would that really make if the goal is to make survival more survival based, but wealthy players keep their money from the old system, and the worlds, with all their farms and all, are retained from the old system.
Down with the filthy 1%ers!  I say we strip the farms down and burn their remains!
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:49:41 pm
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
I like the market idea along with the idea of player shops at the market too.


I would also like to add a thought to the whole wipe thing. I already know it's off the table now, but I wonder how this would work in the eyes of the people who were against a world wipe but for a change to the economy.

I'm just curious as to what difference would that really make if the goal is to make survival more survival based, but wealthy players keep their money from the old system, and the worlds, with all their farms and all, are retained from the old system. (unless I'm misunderstanding something about all this). Ya the economy would be different, but so? If everything else is unchanged then we have older players with an advantage over newer ones (at least in terms of survivability) due to them profiting under the old system.

Not that I necessarily think the wealthy should have their money taken away, but I think and all or nothing approach would make more sense than having one or the other (between world wipe and economy revamp). At least to me it'd make more sense to either have a complete fresh start, or keep going the way it is. Buy idk, perhaps, again, I'm misunderstanding something.
you do misunderstand, the current economy would go away, that includes all the money.  Even if they kept the money it would be useless. And I do agree with you that a fresh start would make more sense to go along with changing the economy, but the players are clearly against that.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: kagarium on March 20, 2016, 02:55:41 pm
I'd like to see a resource world implemented. There are quite a few advantages to this and I cant really think of any disadvantages other than the majority of the mining wont be done in the main worlds. The resource world would allow the main worlds to look much nicer as they are for building and exploring only. The resource world would also regenerate regularly but also randomize so that players can not memorize where the resources are located. The goal of this is to not end up with worlds like old guest further down the road.

From what I can remember this has been brought up quite a few times in the past; and i think this would we a great thing to go along with a wipe of the economy. And like you said, now we never have to worry about a world running out of resources and having to create a new one

As for everything else, I'm for everything except wiping the worlds.
However, could you elaborate on:
- Change to a player defined protection field system
I don't understand exactly what that would ensue or really change about the server.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 20, 2016, 03:41:05 pm
one question I just donated for money, new economy it goes away, will there be compensation under the new system given to those who donated either by cash or top voter?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 03:44:34 pm
one question I just donated for money, new economy it goes away, will there be compensation under the new system given to those who donated either by cash or top voter?
yes, we have been brainstorming ways to compensate if we were to go this route

And kag, it wouldn't change the server much at all. Just instead of buying protection of fixed sizes, the user would get to select the area they want protected.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 20, 2016, 05:39:22 pm
thanks Nick

in that case I have no further objections, and since a complete wipe is off the table I vote yes (a complete wipe is still a no vote)
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 20, 2016, 07:02:57 pm
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

I can't seem to wrap my head around what the big issue is with our current "economy." It works. People like it - it alters the game play from generic survival, and doesn't force me to flood parts of the map little farms etc. in order to get "points" for rare/hard to get blocks for builds that I'm working on. So I suppose mainly other than my extreme distaste for your point system, I'd really just like to know what everyone dislikes so much about our current "economy".
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: tiggy26668 on March 20, 2016, 07:16:36 pm
Proposed changes include:
- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of pvp modes
- Addition of a player trading system
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
- Change to a player defined protection field system

just gonna toss my 2 cents here
1) not happening gonna ignore
2) take my millions i could care less farming money was just an incentive to build things and stay active, needed stuff to do... see #3
3) addition of more stuff to do, doesn't have to be pvp just stuff in general. in any game once you beat the main storyline u start picking off the side quests, stuff = side quests
4) there should be a safe way to exchange goods, aside from that if i need 600 gold blocks im not gonna farm 2k stone to trade you, im just gonna farm the gold
5) this falls under the stuff category, whether it's money points kangaroos or dungeon raids it's just another thing to collect and more stuff to do
6) never liked protection stones, too costly, not reliable and had a high failure rate with a large difficulty to repair let alone find where you stuck um, alicia knows she's prolly replaced 500 or so for me at least, all for revamping this

my biggest problem with survival was always that there's nothing to survive, you could make a tiny dirt shack and live forever. given the nature of multiplayer and server resource costs you could never have enough units threatening every player, it would just be a laggy mess. in the end you just casually farm your way to victory then get bored with nothing left to accomplish and no outside threats.

for me by the end i was just afk at farms not because i wanted to be rich but because i'd run out of things to do.

one thing i'd always thought would be cool to implement would be dungeon type worlds, where you could take what you've gotten from the survival world and challenge yourself against significant foes, whether it be against a single boss mob, waves of foes, or trying to clear a little dungeon. possibly with the reward of unique items you couldn't acquire in the normal game ie: boots that let you fly for a limited time or something. just think how many people showed up to kill the dragon for a stupid black egg.

that's just my thoughts though do with it what you will
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 20, 2016, 07:27:15 pm
well I agree Cora, I like the current economy, I don't and wont do stupid games etc. to get points, however, I am willing to compromise as they are not doing a complete wipe and will transfer my funds to the new economy.  but your right in the new economy I wont be able to buy anything anymore and that will hurt the quality of my builds.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 08:16:16 pm
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

I can't seem to wrap my head around what the big issue is with our current "economy." It works. People like it - it alters the game play from generic survival, and doesn't force me to flood parts of the map little farms etc. in order to get "points" for rare/hard to get blocks for builds that I'm working on. So I suppose mainly other than my extreme distaste for your point system, I'd really just like to know what everyone dislikes so much about our current "economy".
That's just it, it doesn't work, it hasn't worked for a long time. The main idea behind our market and economy was that it was supposed to be a last resort for players get get a few blocks from. Unfortunately that turned into everyone building giant laggy farms and afking for hours on end to gain wealth. That is not, and has never been what we intended the economy and game play to be. It straight up doesn't work.

Roza, it is not stupid games, it's literally points for everyday survival things. No games. The point of it is that you gradually gain points the more you regularly play. You don't have to go out of you way to get them (except voting but it's obvious why we would do that).
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 20, 2016, 08:45:40 pm
I apologize I didn't intend to type "stupid" and lets not forget to focus on the positive  of what I said as well, which is that I am willing to compromise, and to do what it takes to help (all you have to do is ask), and I am in support of you changing the economy even though I rely on our current market to get things in a hurry when I am  in the middle of building or things I hate to gather/farm myself.

Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TarynMai on March 20, 2016, 08:59:18 pm
I apologize I didn't intend to type "stupid" and lets not forget to focus on the positive  of what I said as well, which is that I am willing to compromise, and to do what it takes to help (all you have to do is ask), and I am in support of you changing the economy even though I rely on our current market to get things in a hurry when I am  in the middle of building or things I hate to gather/farm myself.

If you don't like to have to get the blocks for yourself and would rather buy them, what exactly is the difference between that and creative? Why not just build there? I don't mean anything bad by asking, I'm just genuinely curious why you wouldn't just use creative if you really don't want to have to get all of the blocks by hand.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 20, 2016, 09:00:20 pm
That's just it, it doesn't work, it hasn't worked for a long time. The main idea behind our market and economy was that it was supposed to be a last resort for players get get a few blocks from. Unfortunately that turned into everyone building giant laggy farms and afking for hours on end to gain wealth. That is not, and has never been what we intended the economy and game play to be. It straight up doesn't work.

What about it doesn't work? Just because it's not what you intended, does not mean that it doesn't work the way it is. It just means you don't like what you've created -- I, and the people who play regularly do like it - or people like Hoax don't use it at all lol. Also you don't technically have an "economy." It's not an economy because because there's unlimited cash flow entering every time someone donates for money, and it would be the same with your "point system". There would be an unlimited number to the amount of points a player gets thus completely evolving into the same thing you don't like. Though now instead of laggy farms you have all these ugly farms everywhere people are making purely for the purpose of gaining those points. Would people gain points for killing mobs as that's a survival activity? Mob farms - bam. Would people make points for planting crops and picking them? Bam, lag farms. Would people make points for killing animals or for breeding them? Bam, animal farm. Changing the system to points won't change or fix anything - not that I think it's broke to begin with, but I really don't think it's worth implementing such a change - just to go back to where you don't seem to like being. I think if you don't like the big lag farms make it purely against the rules. Make it a banable offence - give staff the permission to roll back any farms made/found, and call it a day. When people complain as to why you've made that rule - give THIS explanation. The one where you feel it ruins the world and the game play. Again, just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Waddlaswe on March 20, 2016, 10:11:49 pm
As long as you don't add MCMMO I'm all for changes xD. Also I love the players shop idea Gavin posted about.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 20, 2016, 10:24:24 pm
Alicia

to answer your question I do like to mine and gather most blocks.  that's mine craft. I do like the ability to buy blocks at the same time.    I also prefer to play on Opticalza's server because it is the best I have seen.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Waddlaswe on March 20, 2016, 10:25:08 pm
That's just it, it doesn't work, it hasn't worked for a long time. The main idea behind our market and economy was that it was supposed to be a last resort for players get get a few blocks from. Unfortunately that turned into everyone building giant laggy farms and afking for hours on end to gain wealth. That is not, and has never been what we intended the economy and game play to be. It straight up doesn't work.

What about it doesn't work? Just because it's not what you intended, does not mean that it doesn't work the way it is. It just means you don't like what you've created -- I, and the people who play regularly do like it - or people like Hoax don't use it at all lol. Also you don't technically have an "economy." It's not an economy because because there's unlimited cash flow entering every time someone donates for money, and it would be the same with your "point system". There would be an unlimited number to the amount of points a player gets thus completely evolving into the same thing you don't like. Though now instead of laggy farms you have all these ugly farms everywhere people are making purely for the purpose of gaining those points. Would people gain points for killing mobs as that's a survival activity? Mob farms - bam. Would people make points for planting crops and picking them? Bam, lag farms. Would people make points for killing animals or for breeding them? Bam, animal farm. Changing the system to points won't change or fix anything - not that I think it's broke to begin with, but I really don't think it's worth implementing such a change - just to go back to where you don't seem to like being. I think if you don't like the big lag farms make it purely against the rules. Make it a banable offence - give staff the permission to roll back any farms made/found, and call it a day. When people complain as to why you've made that rule - give THIS explanation. The one where you feel it ruins the world and the game play. Again, just my thoughts.


Personally for people like me and Lando, and Gavin. All the fun of Minecraft is in making farms. Minecraft is so much more than breaking blocks, crafting and building a house. There are so many different elements and layers. And a big one is the building of farms and automation.  I am strongly against the idea of banning farms.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 20, 2016, 10:27:07 pm
Personally for people like me and Lando, and Gavin. All the fun of Minecraft is in making farms. Minecraft is so much more than breaking blocks, crafting and building a house. There are so many different elements and layers. And a big one is the building of farms and automation.  I am strongly against the idea of banning farms.

I am too Waddlaswe - the idea was more to make a point. That no economic changes will stop people from making these farms - and so the only way to stop it - if that is such a big deal to our admin, is to make them against the rules. I personally like Opticraft the way it is.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Waddlaswe on March 20, 2016, 10:33:31 pm
I am too Waddlaswe - the idea was more to make a point. That no economic changes will stop people from making these farms - and so the only way to stop it - if that is such a big deal to our admin, is to make them against the rules. I personally like Opticraft the way it is.

I agree with you. I love Opticraft the way it is. Could it use some slight changes. Yes. But it shouldn't be completely re-done.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 10:56:23 pm
That's just it, it doesn't work, it hasn't worked for a long time. The main idea behind our market and economy was that it was supposed to be a last resort for players get get a few blocks from. Unfortunately that turned into everyone building giant laggy farms and afking for hours on end to gain wealth. That is not, and has never been what we intended the economy and game play to be. It straight up doesn't work.

What about it doesn't work? Just because it's not what you intended, does not mean that it doesn't work the way it is. It just means you don't like what you've created -- I, and the people who play regularly do like it - or people like Hoax don't use it at all lol. Also you don't technically have an "economy." It's not an economy because because there's unlimited cash flow entering every time someone donates for money, and it would be the same with your "point system". There would be an unlimited number to the amount of points a player gets thus completely evolving into the same thing you don't like. Though now instead of laggy farms you have all these ugly farms everywhere people are making purely for the purpose of gaining those points. Would people gain points for killing mobs as that's a survival activity? Mob farms - bam. Would people make points for planting crops and picking them? Bam, lag farms. Would people make points for killing animals or for breeding them? Bam, animal farm. Changing the system to points won't change or fix anything - not that I think it's broke to begin with, but I really don't think it's worth implementing such a change - just to go back to where you don't seem to like being. I think if you don't like the big lag farms make it purely against the rules. Make it a banable offence - give staff the permission to roll back any farms made/found, and call it a day. When people complain as to why you've made that rule - give THIS explanation. The one where you feel it ruins the world and the game play. Again, just my thoughts.
It is not even close to the same thing as we can manage a points system to make it where no one activity can be easily abused like the market currently is. A great example would be checking if mobs are spawned from a spawner. There would also be less incentive to abuse the point system if it were possible as you cannot gain most items from it. Bottom line is, there would be no way to just afk in one spot or stand there clicking over and over to gain points. The idea of the points system is to get rid of the market but still have a way for players to buy protection, the server is not supposed to run on the points.

Sure people will still build farms, and if that's what they like to do, then more power to them. They just wont be able to get insanely rich from them by standing in one spot.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Cora on March 20, 2016, 11:03:03 pm
It is not even close to the same thing as we can manage a points system to make it where no one activity can be easily abused like the market currently is. A great example would be checking if mobs are spawned from a spawner. There would also be less incentive to abuse the point system if it were possible as you cannot gain most items from it. Bottom line is, there would be no way to just afk in one spot or stand there clicking over and over to gain points. The idea of the points system is to get rid of the market but still have a way for players to buy protection, the server is not supposed to run on the points.

Sure people will still build farms, and if that's what they like to do, then more power to them. They just wont be able to get insanely rich from them by standing in one spot.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TarynMai on March 20, 2016, 11:26:13 pm
Alicia

to answer your question I do like to mine and gather most blocks.  that's mine craft. I do like the ability to buy blocks at the same time.    I also prefer to play on Opticalza's server because it is the best I have seen.

Fair enough, was only curious :p
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: DeeKay on March 21, 2016, 10:27:23 am
After reading through everyone's responses and having a few days to think about this, a lot of my original thoughts have changed a little. Here goes.

Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
This was honestly the thing I was looking forward to the most and it's a real shame it's off the table now. I think it's taken far too long for this to have been brought up, and unfortunately because of that, it's become something almost unacceptable within the community. I know not everyone sees eye to eye on this subject and it's become a lot more controversial than I would have ever expected it to be, but in my eyes I think a clean slate would have benefited the server greatly and given a fresh outlook and a way to consolidate and bring things back together.

On the similar topic of adding a new world for 1.9; I don't like this idea at all. This kind of thing has always been our knee-jerk reaction to giving people more space, and every time it's added more to the problem than it did fix it. It's separated the players more and more every time and caused more of an eyesore every time. At this point, if there's not going to be a wipe, I'm more in favour of keeping the number of worlds the way they are than adding any new ones.

Simplification or removal of the economy system.
I think the argument going around for this is that our current money/market system is broken. (trying to stay clear of the word economy) While I agree the money/market system probably isn't the way it intended to be, and that it had a lot of rough patches within the community in the past, I don't think it's necessarily broken. However, I'm still in favour of it being removed but for a much more simple reason than others might have. I simply want a more survival feel for the server, not just myself. You can say something like "well just don't use it" and I get it, but it goes much deeper than that. Every feature on the server is there for everyone and it reflects the server as a whole whether I choose to use it or not, and it might just be me being a pro-survival kinda guy, but I just think we need to consider going back a step and think more vanilla.

Addition of pvp modes
I was in favour for this at first, but as per my response above I think it would make more sense to have a whole world dedicated to PvP or even just a portion of the world being PvP. Perhaps the Nether and/or End worlds have some kind of PvP, as it would be somewhat immersive considering they're the most dangerous.

Addition of a player trading system
Same as above. Wouldn't hurt the server but isn't totally necessary for a survival server with a low player count. I think being able to chat with someone and organise to meet up somewhere is part of the survival experience.

Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
I like the idea of being able to earn points from voting to spend in a separate store (my server does this and it has helped voting tremendously) but I'm on the fence about the idea of earning them from doing every day activities. I think it would make more sense to draw the line at voting and not try to make it a replacement for the current money/market system we have. I think it should be seen as a way to revamp the voting system and give players new rewards for voting.

Change to a player defined protection field system
I think the pstone system works just fine and this would only complicate things. Personally, I like being given a block I simply have to place and protect an area with no hassle. I think pstones are user friendly, convenient, and intuitive to use.

Other Thoughts
I see a lot of "this will help boost out player count" going around, and I don't think this should have been an argument or counterargument. I think any changes we make to the server would be neutral in terms of player count. The main thing these changes should be targeting is our community, and how we can help improve and revamp things to make them enjoyable once more to those who find the server to be stale. if we're thinking in terms of new players, it should be "how can we make the server appealing once more to any new players we could potentially receive."

On that note, I agree that advertising should be a high priority if the outcome is wanting a higher player count. I think starting with the revamp of the voting system is a good start and things can expand from there on.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 21, 2016, 09:51:21 pm
I only have one question DeeKay

currently new 1.8... blocks are only available in market or by crafting as we had no expansion of the worlds an no new worlds added when these blocks were added, if you propose to remove the market and not create new world, or expand borders on current worlds, where do people get these blocks at a reasonable cost?  Crafting is quartz heavy while mining in their biomes plentiful.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: VoreReznor on March 21, 2016, 10:59:50 pm
My motherboard crapped out and I missed 2 weeks.  I have a few things to contribute to this topic and a few opinions that I was too late getting in.

Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
Oh man, I have builds that I work on regularly, on 3 of our 4 worlds I am in for wiping all of them. I feel like one of the things that really got me hooked on this server was getting invited into a town and working as a member of that community.  As the worlds grew and players spread out the need to work with others slowly faded away as we all had our own room to do our own thing.  We have roughly 25-50 regular players currently playing on 4 worlds that are huge, this takes away from the team building feel.  I have invested years into some big projects but I feel like its kind of like playing with lego, you need to smash apart your old builds to make newer better ones


Simplification or removal of the economy system
I don't normally use the market or my currency, the only thing players really need to buy are rare items and ps stones and in my opinion ps stones are kind of obsolete for the staff per player ratio we have.  I have felt this way long before becoming staff as testament to everyone before me. Our staff fix and enforce rules so well the average player doesn't need to protect anything, they can just rely on rollback and bans. 


Addition of pvp modes
I don't PVP, I am in favour of what more experienced players in the pvp world have to say.


Addition of a player trading system
This already happens (in /ch t), I think it would be nice to allow for guys to set up shops so money and items are auto transferred.  other than that I don't see this being a big change to the server.


Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
I like this idea, but I think it sounds like a lot of work.  I think if all this work is done to change the general feel of the server we should make it a fresh start.  which should include moving out old worlds and cash.  I think carrying over the old worlds and farms would be a waste as most people will need to start over anyway.

Change to a player defined protection field system
This is a must in my opinion.  I think PS Stones are obsolete.  We need a revamping of this or deletion of PS all together.

I am happy with this server the way it is, I am also excited to be apart of it in the future and will do my best to help the cause even if it's not the way I would like it to be.  If you need anything or have specific questions for me please ask.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 21, 2016, 11:41:41 pm
Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
I like this idea, but I think it sounds like a lot of work.  I think if all this work is done to change the general feel of the server we should make it a fresh start.  which should include moving out old worlds and cash.  I think carrying over the old worlds and farms would be a waste as most people will need to start over anyway.
That is basically one of the reasons a few of us were in favor of a complete wipe but its clear the players don't feel the same.  And if the current market gets replaced, the money will go away with it.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: DeeKay on March 22, 2016, 06:55:51 am
I only have one question DeeKay

currently new 1.8... blocks are only available in market or by crafting as we had no expansion of the worlds an no new worlds added when these blocks were added, if you propose to remove the market and not create new world, or expand borders on current worlds, where do people get these blocks at a reasonable cost?  Crafting is quartz heavy while mining in their biomes plentiful.
I suppose I forgot to mention the world borders. If there were to be no wipe and if the market were to be removed, then yes an extension of perhaps all world borders would be in place to compensate for this, which is still much better than adding a new world. Obviously you can imagine a full wipe wouldn't have this issue, which was where my post was coming from, which is why I hadn't mentioned this.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: daniblue182 on March 22, 2016, 05:43:08 pm
A total wipe of the server  would be very good, if the worlds are up for download and not removed completely, people shouldn't get their knickers in a twist.
It's a shame that's been crossed off, surely if a new world was added and there was a time limit to move stuff over to the new world, then it wouldn't be such a big change for some people who worked hard to get what they have if they don't completely want to start again.

But again it's a big shame people are so reluctant to change the majority of the time.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Mr_Mr_Mr on March 22, 2016, 10:33:46 pm
- Complete wipe of the server (all worlds will be available for download)
Yes. I think that a wipe should happen because I've pretty done everything I could in the game. I don't really care that I spend a whole lot of time working on the things on the server because I haven't touched them in a long time anyway and I don't intend to touch them in the future either. A restart would be inviting for me to come back. When it comes to gaming people should be used to losing everything, the whole point of the game is to build up from nothing. If you're constantly stuck at the endgame it is no fun.

Pros:
- Too many people are at the end game and there isn't much to do anymore.
- It is inviting to old people to return and inviting to new players because they won't be so far behind.

Cons:
- Even though it would be up for download, everything in the server would completely lose value to me. However, everything currently has no value to me anyways (except nostalgia) so this con is pretty much useless.

- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
Simplification, not removal, a wipe would be nice too. I don't think that the economy should be removed because that's something I used to keep me going on the server. It's what made opticraft unique for me and I would be sad if we were to lose it completely. But then again, I have no intentions on touching the server again unless there is a wipe, so I really couldn't care less in a way. I think the economy is too inflated right now, so a simplification and reset would be ideal.

Pros:
- No more annoying farms or competition to see who has the most money.
- More motivation for player trading if removed. (I personally like this concept)

Cons:
- People who like to build will find it harder to gather a ton of blocks to make things.
- No drive to play, vanilla or close to vanilla survival can be very boring and there wouldn't be anything to strive for.

- Addition of pvp modes
Yes. If we are talking about the modes we were going to have with the old dev (forgot his name) then yes. If not, then it really depends on what you have purposed and how much time it would take you guys away from making more important/greater things. I'm willing to bet what you have purposed is something much better than the half assed arenas you made a while back.

Pros:
- It would be something else for people to do.
- I love PVP, so if it's good I'd like it.
- PVP can be addicting and would get people to join and potentially stay.

Cons:
- I don't see any other than it could be another flop if not done right.

- Addition of a player trading system
Yes. Personally I think something like the grand exchange (GE) in runescape would be amazing. If that's the case then removing the economy seems useless. If you're not thinking of something as big as the GE, I think a player to player simple trading system would be nice because it would invite players to interact with each other more instead of not saying anything and being able to go to the market and buy a shit ton of building materials or rare items.

Pros:
- If the economy would be removed, this would give some people to strive towards things, maybe trade for building materials.

Cons:
- We would have to keep an economy if we did a massive trading system like the GE. This can be solved by simply not having a GE system.

- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
Indifferent, (most likely yes). I don't really see much use for this unless the economy was to be removed. I would also suggest against being able to buy rare items, rare items should stay rare. I love it when games don't allow you to simply buy rarer items (Even if they are over priced, because then you'd focus on grinding points instead of going out to get it yourself) and make you work for them because if gives you something to strive for.

Pros:
- Something to give you things to look forward to.
- If the economy were removed, this could be a nice replacement.

Cons:
- If there's an economy, what's the point?

- Change to a player defined protection field system
No. I personally think pstones work great, except when they break and an op has to bring you another. They are really simple and easy to use.

Pros:
- Pstones have limited area and are a pain to place everywhere to make sure your whole build is covered. A new system (World Edit-Type system) would be great for protecting your whole house all at once.

Cons:
- Pstones are really simple to use and inviting.
- Pstones work fine as is at the moment.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 22, 2016, 11:10:28 pm
Regarding a reset. It is understandable that some people have reached their limit in Minecraft and want to start over. It is also very understandable that others can go far beyond that limit and want to keep going. I don't see why those that have reached their limit cannot start over just by themselves. Instead they want to reset the server, not only for themselves but also for those that do not need/want a reset at all.

I'm glad that a reset is not an issue anymore. It could have meant the end of Opticraft.  (I've experienced similar situations on UO servers, long ago.)


Regarding the economy. I think it's a good idea to remove it and focus more on survival. I mentioned this in 2013 and I'm glad more people would like that too now.
I'm on /Baltop  No. 1 so I actually have the most to lose from it but I don't mind losing it all if the entire economy is removed. A survival server with an economy isn't realy a survival server.

Btw, the fact that we cannot sell items for money doesn't mean we are less wealthy. Resources mean wealth too.


Regarding farms. That's something that will always be a part of minecraft and it will always make certain players wealthier than others just because they make more of an effort to collect items. People should remember that there's nothing unfair about it, everybody can do it, you just have to put time and effort into it. Farms are what drives me to play MC.


Regarding pvp. I think it would be wonderful if we had an extra separate world, but with pvp allowed on it. You don't want pvp? Then just don't go there.


Regarding a player trading system. I'd like that very much. Safe trading, no cheating. Would be great.


Regarding a points system and a protection system. No idea how this would work but if there's any easy way to protect your builds, without complex side effects, by gathering points, I'm game!


Lastly, I'm very much in favour of adding a new 1.9 world because just updating the other worlds doesn't mean they have all the 1.9 features.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: 360OLLIE on March 23, 2016, 02:03:36 pm
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
I'm in favor of the Removal of the economy system including market-bought items.
- Addition of pvp modes
Go ahead, I'm not a huge fan of raw PVP but I see no problem with the idea.
- Addition of a player trading system
Yes please
- Points system
Yes please
- Change to a player defined protection field system
Undecided

I'll probably follow up with a more elaborate post on the pstones and trading / points system.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: 100penguin. on March 23, 2016, 02:57:11 pm

- Change to a player defined protection field system
Not necessary, pstones are simple and effective.


They're effective, but not simple. They don't work particularly well with name changes, they break after time (Making extra effort for staff) and most importantly they rely on money. This means that poorer players are at higher risk of being griefed, and are unable to claim interesting or useful things - richer players often claim large swathes of biomes for their personal use, whereas poorer players can't.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Ramkitty on March 23, 2016, 08:37:47 pm
Although there are many points listed in the OP only one stands out to me and that is the complete wipe of the server. I have to say i am 100% completely in favour of this idea and see it is a shame that this has been crossed off. I am very much with MR on this when i say that i reached the end game in MC. I want something new and fresh and fun to do, i dont want to run around an old and messed up world where i feel like i have seen it all before, frankly walking round some parts of the world makes me feel sad because it looks so run down. Change is a scary thing but this is change for the better, to make us feel like Opticraft again. To entice old members to come back and interact with everyone, offer new challenges and in turn create new friendships with people which will im sure lead to some epic builds. I have always stuck around here for the community because you guys are what makes this place great, i find it really disheartening that we have completely dismissed the idea of a wipe just because a few people do not want to change and embrace what could be an even better server and offer up an even more enjoyable experience.

Its not as if you would be losing what you worked for! They would be available to download so you can continue to work with each other.

Please i would urge people to re-consider this decision and hopefully this idea could be posed once again.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 23, 2016, 09:55:31 pm
Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I also changed my mind on the whole worlds being there as an archive in favor of the original idea of the old worlds simply being up for download.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: kagarium on March 23, 2016, 10:53:58 pm
Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I agree. I'm also in favor of wiping the map and staring fresh. Even though I myself am working on a few projects, I think this would be a great way to start off fresh, especially if we go for the changes to the economy



Maybe as a compromise some of the builds on the server could be moved to the new map. Criteria for that could be something like: 1-Player who owns the build must still be active 2-Must be at least X by X by X large 3- Must have previously obtained a project/city protection.

Probably could be improved a bit, but that's just and idea of something that might work
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: daniblue182 on March 23, 2016, 11:23:31 pm
Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I support this ^_^
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 23, 2016, 11:30:45 pm

Maybe as a compromise some of the builds on the server could be moved to the new map. Criteria for that could be something like: 1-Player who owns the build must still be active 2-Must be at least X by X by X large 3- Must have previously obtained a project/city protection.

Probably could be improved a bit, but that's just and idea of something that might work

I have thought about this idea several times in the past, but I believe it would be far too complicated and have too many issues to be done successfully. It would take a vast amount of time for the few upper staff to get this done, either by WEing over the builds or using mceidt. Also, not every build works well when its taken out of the context of the landscape it was built into, we cant just take a build that was in the side of a mountain and try to fit it perfectly into a new world. Also, we would have to give a time slot for people to submit an application of shorts for something like this, over a long period of time so that our newer players that have settled in have a chance to see whats going to happen and react, otherwise, there will be a large amount of people who never got the chance to request their build moved.

The prospect of only moving builds that have been granted project protection only helps out our older players, who have had many years of game play with their builds where as the newer members would get nothing of the sorts. I feel most older members would continue playing because they love the community while the newer players don't quite know the community yet and might need some more incentive.

Something I thought that could possibly replace this idea, is that everyone can move one inventory full of stuff over to the new world. This would give the newer players that just started the chance to continue on what they have done, and give players the chance to take some of their builds down and recreate them. This would of course mean that they would not be available in the downloadable worlds however.
Just a thought to help out the newer members if there is a server wipe.

I'm wondering why a server wipe was taken off the table so early into the debate. As with most things, there's a substantial divide between opinions on this one matter, but I believe that offering the worlds as downloads is a pretty good middle ground.

Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.

I support this ^_^

I also support this.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 01:45:16 am
I've read through everything in the thread, and I'd like to begin by thanking Nick and the staff for opening this discussion and for seriously looking into improvements for the server.  I'm also glad that with only a few exceptions, the discussion has been civil and constructive.  Considering the far-reaching consequences of these changes, I'm pleased to see this discussion.

For my part, I am only here for one reason: my city.  I have been working on it since the first moment I joined this server, back in the fall of 2012.  It is more or less the only thing I have ever done in Minecraft and the only reason I play Minecraft.  Needless to say, if that was wiped I'd have no reason to be here.  I am, of course, strongly against erasing my work.  Notwithstanding the practical difficulties involved, I'd be in favor of transferring it to a new world.  But lacking that option, I'm very much against a server wipe. 

I understand that certain areas, like the old guest world, don't look terribly nice, with lots of incongruous old builds packed close together.  But judging from the creative server, that's just how people like to build.  Go figure.  What I don't understand however is the plea from some that playing becomes boring since they have their builds around.  What's stopping you from just destroying it all and giving away all your items?  Or heading off to some empty spot on the map (of which there are many), erasing all your /homes, and starting over?  I don't see why you'd want to forcibly erase everyone else's builds to avoid having to start over on your own.  Several people over the years have given away all their money and items and started over.  Why don't you? 

Those of us who haven't yet "reached the end" of our creativity and interest in our builds shouldn't suffer for your boredom. 

But I didn't intend the server wipe to be the focus of this post, I see (thankfully) that it has been taken off the table.

- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of a player trading system


I am very interested, and supportive, of changes to the economy system.  I'd very much like some kind of actual market economy on the server.  Where players can buy & sell whether they are online or not.  This has been discussed many times before, and is a fantastic idea.  I'm STRONGLY in favor of a completely player-run economy.  I'd give specifics on how I think it should be run, but I'm not familiar with what plugins exist or what they're capable of.  Gavin's suggestions  (http://www.opticraft.net/index.php/topic,20955.msg203906.html#msg203906)are broadly on target.  Players should buy and sell materials they've created/harvested, and they should set their own prices based on supply and demand.  The server just needs to facilitate the method of exchange.  Gavin suggested a barter system, glass for wool, or what-have-you.  I'd advise against that, it'd be much clunkier than using money.  I'm personally fine if we wipe out all the money we have now, but I strongly recommend we keep some kind of money system to use for buying/selling.

This system would still reward those who invest their time in making massive farms.  They'd have more of a supply of items to sell, and can undercut the prices of anyone else.  Of course if they flood the market with some item, it'd be worth much less (like how the price of dragon eggs declined sharply over the years as they became easier to get).  But not all resources can be farmed.  The price of iron might drop, but someone wanting to invest time in harvesting glowstone could probably still command a great price. 

I think we shouldn't turn our noses up at those whose Minecraft ambition is to have the biggest pot of money.  I don't care at all about it, but if it is an incentive to some players (and clearly it is) then let them seek out virtual riches by providing everyone else with a useful service of harvesting resources.   For those who are bored with the server, this provides a great new fun activity.  Some can aspire to corner the endstone market, or try to become a coal baron, etc.  It would add a new dimension to the game.

I understand that the current market makes building easier (which is both a good or bad thing depending on perspective).  I've personally been reluctant to use it too much (except as a way to sell all the stone & dirt and such I excavate), most of the materials I use in my city are things I've harvested myself.  I'm really excited about the idea of a player-run economy.  The current market distorts everything and I agree we should do away with it. 

- Addition of pvp modes

I really don't have an opinion about PVP. I don't do it, and don't care about it.  But if it'll get more players on the server (and if there is a way I can opt out of it so people don't just drop in on me in the middle of building and murder me) then I'm fine with whatever. 

- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.

Eh, I dunno.  If we go with a truly player-driven economy, then I'd like to have one common currency for all our transactions.  Call it points, call it money, it doesn't matter.  But if we want the economy to take off, then everything should be unified.  I think the beauty of Minecraft is the way in which it mirrors life.  Chop a tree, mine some stone, smelt some iron, etc.  Build things out of the natural resources around us.  That, I feel, is the essence of survival mode.   Whenever we introduce a parallel reward system it takes our focus away from the primary system.  We should buy protection or rare items with the same currency we use for player shops. 

The one worry with introducing a purely player-run economy is getting it started.  Without the easy money that comes from selling items to a server-run market, we'll need a real motivation to participate in it.  If players really desire protection/rare items (and they do), then they'll work to harvest/sell items that people want, which will jumpstart the economy.  It'll give us all a real incentive to get the economy working smoothly. 

The trick then is how to handle voting & donation rewards.  It could have the same kind of distortionary effect that the market currently does.  So perhaps have a point system and allow one-way conversion of dollars for points.  You vote & donate, you get points which can be spent on protection & rare items.  You can convert money into points, but can't convert points into money. 

I very much enjoy my current city protection, and for selfish reasons I'd like to preserve it.  But protection is a very valuable commodity, and working to expand our protection field (through selling resources, voting or donating) would be a nice thing to drive our work (for those who are bored). 

I'd prefer that over a system that awards spendable points for digging. 

- Change to a player defined protection field system

I'm not sure what this means.  But giving players more control over protection would be great.  It would probably save staff some time/effort in administering things.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:03:16 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points. 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 02:15:05 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:28:57 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency? 

If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it.  But you need *something* besides straight barter. 

You don't need to control the point system.  That's the beauty of a player-run economy.  I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good.  The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand.  If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop.  That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things.  Just let things run their course. 

If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value.  Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground. 

If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 24, 2016, 02:38:50 am
There really hasnít been anything said about why we want a server wipe except for the vague comments of starting over. In a multiplayer minecraft server, the idea should be that you can do whatever you want to do, but from the very start, with how things are set up, that isnít the case. The accumulation of every players work effects new players, they canít really go out into the wilderness without seeing someone elseís build or running into someone else pre-dug mine. This is especially the case in the old worlds where you canít throw a stone and not hit a block that someone didnít edit. This is mostly because of our popularity back in 2012 when we had 100+ people on at a time. Our method of adding worlds worked for a temporary solution, however, since people still had everything they had accumulated, it was that much easier to harvest everything from a new world and populate the next. I donít see this method of adding worlds continuously going on forever, at some point, old worlds will have to go. If we add two new worlds like we usually do, a new guest and a new member, I feel itís kind of ridiculous to have two worlds that the majority of people play on, and four worlds that a very small minority use. Iím not trying to say that the minority isnít important, but change does happen, you can either accept it and move with it, or reject it and be left behind.

Regarding a reset. It is understandable that some people have reached their limit in Minecraft and want to start over. It is also very understandable that others can go far beyond that limit and want to keep going. I don't see why those that have reached their limit cannot start over just by themselves. Instead they want to reset the server, not only for themselves but also for those that do not need/want a reset at all.

As stated above, the population of the world prevents a true restart for a player. Even if a new world is added, they may have about a day or two to enjoy the world before people start making rediculously large mine tunnels, claiming land and gathering all the resources. Yes that is what you are supposed to do in minecraft, but as stated above, the amount of resources the average player has helps them use up the new worlds very quickly.

I understand that certain areas, like the old guest world, don't look terribly nice, with lots of incongruous old builds packed close together.  But judging from the creative server, that's just how people like to build.  Go figure.  What I don't understand however is the plea from some that playing becomes boring since they have their builds around.  What's stopping you from just destroying it all and giving away all your items?  Or heading off to some empty spot on the map (of which there are many), erasing all your /homes, and starting over?  I don't see why you'd want to forcibly erase everyone else's builds to avoid having to start over on your own.  Several people over the years have given away all their money and items and started over.  Why don't you? 

It is incorrect to compare the building style on creative to the building style on a survival server. Sorry, but they are two very different things. Mostly, people want their own area to develop, and typically only share it with friends, if anyone. Just because the old worlds are filled with builds that are closed together does not mean that that is what players prefer. That really means that the world is far passed done with and players want new space to build. That is why it looks like such trash for the most part, players ran out of room and began clustering builds, then they would leave them and someone would come along and grief it because everything is so available due to proximity.
The main reason I am for a server wipe, as I briefly mentioned above, is to pretty much level the playing field again. Adding new worlds doesnít work very well when old players that have vast amounts of resources such as armor, weapons, pearls for travel, and food can quickly run through the worlds, claim their lands, usually larger than they need, and quickly develop a build while newer players have to take their time to get settled in. The most recent case is the new end world. I would be willing to bet every castle was raided, claimed or deconstructed for materials within the first day or two.
This is why I believe the server should be wiped and the worlds put up for downloads. A fresh start would be a nice chance of pace. I am also willing to discuss something along the lines of players builds being moved or a handful of items being brought over, though as I stated in my previous post, this would need quite a bit of thought as to how it can be done easily and fairly.

I encourage everyone that has voted for a server wipe to go into more detail as to why they would like this.

And please, if you are against wiping the server, please stop using the argument that it is incorrect when someone says that "it's not fun anymore when you reach the end game" or "I've already done everything, so the game is now boring". It is not incorrect to say that, nor is it completely true, but the people that are saying it are saying it for themselves, not others. When you disagree with that, you are stating that it is incorrect for everyone. That is not a valid argument. Please still feel free to state why you still have fun doing what you do though, that is not what I am putting down.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:49:21 am
Your two points are:

1. There isn't enough open land. 
2. We should have a level playing field.

Your first point is simply not true.  Even the cluttered and ancient old guest world there is plenty of available space.  Look at the right most corner on the overviewer map.  Lots of places to build.  Plenty more on the other maps. 

Your second point just doesn't make sense to me.  Minecraft isn't a competition.  If your goal is to have more chests full of more blocks than the next guy, then maybe this isn't the right game for you.  How does my city, which I've worked on for over 3 years, dampen your enjoyment of the game?  Or make anything you build less impressive? 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 02:55:14 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency? 

If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it.  But you need *something* besides straight barter. 

You don't need to control the point system.  That's the beauty of a player-run economy.  I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good.  The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand.  If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop.  That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things.  Just let things run their course. 

If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value.  Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground. 

If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.
there is no renaming anything to anything. If we get rid of the market, all the money is going with it. The points system would just be a tiny system to help players afford protection because there's no more money.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 24, 2016, 02:57:46 am
Your two points are:

1. There isn't enough open land. 
2. We should have a level playing field.

Your first point is simply not true.  Even the cluttered and ancient old guest world there is plenty of available space.  Look at the right most corner on the overviewer map.  Lots of places to build.  Plenty more on the other maps. 

Your second point just doesn't make sense to me.  Minecraft isn't a competition.  If your goal is to have more chests full of more blocks than the next guy, then maybe this isn't the right game for you.  How does my city, which I've worked on for over 3 years, dampen your enjoyment of the game?  Or make anything you build less impressive?

I suppose I didn't make my point clearly enough, but I'm unsure of how to put it any other way. You in particular don't contribute to much of the problems I've brought up in my point, your city is in it's own area and, as you said, it is really your only build. But the average player, especially when starting off, makes several small builds, perhaps relocates several times to work on new builds. Also, this function is only available to operators + but if you go into spectator mode, allowing you to phase through blocks, and travel underground, those areas are full of players mines and looted resources. So they aren't untouched just because they don't have surface builds. You are correct in stating that one of my concerns is availability of land, but that is not at all limited to surface builds.

It certainly has nothing to do with inadequacy or impressiveness of builds.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 24, 2016, 05:32:40 am
Perhaps, if the idea of a server wipe isn't completely out of the question, a compromise is in order? For example, I liked the idea somebody brought up to have applications be open to have builds transferred over to the new worlds.

Also, I would like to say something about the economy topic. I don't really like the idea of there being no money at all and no market at all (I'm in favor of a change to the market to allow players to sell things). What I was thinking was there would be a user based market/economy where people exchange money for items they want that other people are selling, and players can open stands at the market to sell things as opposed to the server selling things (this of course wouldn't mean that nobody could trade items for items) I think my vision for a new economy is more in line with Ozzy's; completely user based, which allows the economy to be a free market. Like said previously by him,  he could build a giant melon farm if he wanted to, but if people don't want melons then it won't benefit him much. People would gain money based on things people want rather than simply a sell sign.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: 100penguin. on March 24, 2016, 08:26:30 am
Perhaps I wasn't quite clear with my argument;

Here are the reasons for and against the idea of wiping the server / specific worlds:

+ More space
+1.9 blocks, items and shit
+ Neater, tidier, brand new appeal
- Loss of projects
- Lack of  familiarity (And a level playing field - this could be seen as a plus, but I disagree)
- Loss of hard work and time

Change is always bad, however that's just my opinion. The above 6 reasons are pretty much what peoples' responses have boiled down to for/against the wiping of worlds, all of which are reasonable arguments.  The one I've failed to put there in the 'against' column however is the one that I believe in - it goes against what Opticraft was always meant to be like. Optical himself always believed in keeping worlds despite how dicrepit and full of shit they were. I have no specific attachment to any of the guest worlds, nor old member particularly apart from vague sentimentality. I agree, many of the guest worlds are a fucking eye sore, and I wouldn't think twice before resetting them if it were completely up to me. As a result of this, I'm sure many guests are somewhat put off by the appearance of the server; and as lowly guests they are unable to see the green over the hill that is the neat, tidy, member worlds.

However. Many people [especially older players] have got attachments or sentimental value to the guest worlds. I see nothing wrong with this - it's not my opinion, or where I stand, but fair enough. Those players are very much in the minority, and as a staff member I've always considered it a ballache when members (Who have their own worlds) decide to retreat back to guest to build - this is ridiculous, but that can be discussed at a later date when this has all blown over.

So despite my lack of attachment to the guest worlds, I still believe they should be kept. If it were up to me, this situation of people spreading out over the hundreds of worlds wouldn't have happened, but hindsight is useless. They should be kept on the principal that that's what opticraft's about.

Moving on swiftly, noone has actually suggested (or slashed and burnt) the idea of just making new worlds? I want the new 1.9 shit as much as anyone, and feel a new world would be great - I've already made my opinions clear about the whole market situation. Is there anything wrong with leaving the old worlds, and creating new ones besides principals? I ask this because I seriously don't know, it's not my field. Will the server explode? Are we limited in world numbers? If so, then perhaps we should do what we have often done where we extend 1 of the member worlds, and 1 of the guest worlds. Perhaps if this were done, we could move the guest spawn to the newly created area so as to show a slightly more 'positive' message about opticraft.

The majority of the 'filling' of the guest worlds (apart from the original guest world) occurred through members+ building there. I feel this should no longer happen, and if the guest worlds were to be resized then new rules should be produced. We have member world as a privilige, therefore it is relatively grief free, and not as busy (not these days, but still).

The entire above section may just seem like a giant moan, but there is some useful content in it. Penguin is against world wipes because it goes against the theme of opticraft, and because it seems unnecessary if we are able to make new worlds just like 'that'. As I did in my last post, I implore everyone to follow my lead and maintain a state of calm and collection in this process. Despite the fact I agree that 'world wipes' have been taken off the table, I can see why that dramatic move can upset people.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: HoaxZ on March 24, 2016, 09:35:01 am
if the surver reset was to come back onto the table so to speak i would be changing my vote back to a no. i know you longtime members have built a lot here and some dont want their builds gone and a download isn't the same thing. i wouldn't want mine nor my son's home to be gone we just built it in the last month and spent hours mining, collecting resources and building the structure. my son even protected an end ship to be his little base. hes chuffed to bits. i know he can get another one but with a server reset we start from the beginning where we where over a month ago. will be like that time was a waste. if you could take a few things over from this world it would be more intensive but i would still vote no, and how much could we take? enough to get us started, enough to keep one load of armor, a double chest?
i support the ideas of going more vanilla and trading between ourselves but i have no automated farms no big hideous structures (unless you dislike my builds) so i feel i am just being penalized because you are all board of the world we have. if your that board destroy all you build and throw it all into lava and you've reset yourself.  if i had to start again im unsure if i would and i know you will loose a few people who are on regularly. a new world is fine but there must be a way to do it without deleting the old world or you wouldn't have taken it off the table in the first place.  this is just my feelings on this as a newcomer, and i know a few who feel the same. if you where to bring it back on the table there would need to be a huge intensive to keep some of your more active members who didn't leave when it got stale for others. if we are discussing solutions please bring other ideas to the table to help resolve this on what we can do. like someone said before if this is to bring in new players restarting the world will not help that is down to advertising and there are a number of ways to do that and i would be more than happy to help with that. but if its to benefit us the existing players, then how does it help us loosing all we have worked for? we can have a the other ideas i am interested in and would like to hear more about but i am strongly against a restart. people went quiet and changed their vote when you took it off the table, if you bring it back on they will not keep quiet and we will be back where we where arguing about it.

i am open to ideas on improvements ans support some changes but a wipe is too extreme measure for me to support. 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 10:51:43 am
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot. 

I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior.  People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points.  If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points.  The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff. 

Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
 
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points.  They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants.  Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them.  The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.

Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run

Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be).  Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find.  They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them).  The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.

How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency? 

If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it.  But you need *something* besides straight barter. 

You don't need to control the point system.  That's the beauty of a player-run economy.  I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good.  The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand.  If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop.  That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things.  Just let things run their course. 

If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value.  Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground. 

If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.
there is no renaming anything to anything. If we get rid of the market, all the money is going with it. The points system would just be a tiny system to help players afford protection because there's no more money.

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm
The one I've failed to put there in the 'against' column however is the one that I believe in - it goes against what Opticraft was always meant to be like.

...

They should be kept on the principal that that's what opticraft's about.

...

Penguin is against world wipes because it goes against the theme of opticraft
I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 24, 2016, 01:23:13 pm
Some players are saying the wipe should be back on the table. I'm glad it's not.
I voted "I support some of them" as in "No Wipe but I like the other ideas." If the wipe would have been back on the table, my vote would be "No".
And I know some other people who would do the same, eg Roza would change her Yes into a No.
Don't let the result of this pol cloud your vision because the amount of No voters would be a lot bigger if the wipe was back on the table.

Some players keep mentioning a wipe because they have reached their endgame. I'd like to repeat, what's stopping you from starting over yourself? Please don't drag us all down with you by asking for a full wipe.
IF there would be a wipe and all players would be put together on a new world, how long do you think it would take before the first one is bored again? Months? Weeks? Days? Then what? A new wipe? And another? And another?
A wipe doesn't solve the fact that certain players reach their limit in MC quite fast while others can continue for many years. Some players simply lack the imagination, drive, passion, knowledge, will, (IQ?) etc. etc. to keep going.



But you need *something* besides straight barter.
Why?



Perhaps, if the idea of a server wipe isn't completely out of the question, a compromise is in order? For example, I liked the idea somebody brought up to have applications be open to have builds transferred over to the new worlds.
My activities on the server are mostly about building farms, and far less about building houses etc.
Would staff transfer my farms to a new world? I doubt it very much. Appart from the fact that eg Guardians and Witches spawn only in certain locations, staff wouldn't be very keen about transferring big farms. So, why would they transfer any other builds? And if builds from four worlds were transferred, wouldn't the new world be full quite fast? I predict HUGE problems with this idea.



The main reason I am for a server wipe, as I briefly mentioned above, is to pretty much level the playing field again. Adding new worlds doesnít work very well when old players that have vast amounts of resources such as armor, weapons, pearls for travel, and food can quickly run through the worlds, claim their lands, usually larger than they need, and quickly develop a build while newer players have to take their time to get settled in. The most recent case is the new end world. I would be willing to bet every castle was raided, claimed or deconstructed for materials within the first day or two.
This is why I believe the server should be wiped and the worlds put up for downloads. A fresh start would be a nice chance of pace.
So you have a problem with the differences in wealth. Contrary to real life where wealth is obtained over the backs of others, in Minecraft everyone could be equally wealthy. All one has to do is put some effort into it.
If there would be a wipe, how long do you think it would take before there would be large differences again? I'd say just a day or two. That makes the "wipe to establish a level playing field"-argument void.
Your example of the so called End Cities is false too. The End has no border, it has an unlimited amount of End Cities. If players have raided the ones closest to the portal, you just have to travel a bit further to find untouched End Cities.

A wipe is a short term solution that would only make a small group of players "happy" for a short period of time. It would be devastating for the rest of the players and for the server as a whole.

The only reason for a wipe would be that the server cannot handle our worlds. In that case we have a much bigger problem than anyone has realised so far.



Is there anything wrong with leaving the old worlds, and creating new ones besides principals?
When I joined the server I only had 2 options, Guest or Member. I chose Member for a reason. I figured Member would be the place where dedicated players would be, where the bigger builds would be, where it wouldn't be a big mess, where people would stick around for a long time unlike guests. So I expected Member to be a somewhat more "permanent" world than Guest. So Member is where I built almost all my builds. Later a New Memberworld was added but since I already had built my home and farms in Member I didn't rebuild my stuff in New Member. That would have been a bit odd.

Anyway, if any worlds had to be removed I want it to be the messed up Guest worlds and not any of the Member worlds.

But I guess that some players specifically chose (no idea why) a Guest world to build in. So for the sake of those players I don't want those worlds to be removed either. Oh and the Guest worlds are our only worlds with Mushroom biomes...



but the people that are saying it are saying it for themselves, not others
Them saying they already reached their endgame is one thing. I doubt anyone has a problem with them saying that. But asking for a wipe is something completely different.
A wipe would not only mean a wipe for themselves, but also for others.
Let them find a solution for themselves, not one that is a disaster for others.

I understand very well that some players already have reached their limit in MC, their endgame. But does that mean they should ruÔn it for others by asking the server to be wiped? They can simply start over for themselves. Just toss your crap into lava.
Does the fact that others are wealthier influence players that are making a new start? It doesn't have to at all. There is plenty of unused land, there is plenty of unmined area (eg below the sea) and there are plenty of ways to get good stuff (eg the new end world). If players aren't lazy they shouldn't have any problem developing themselves!



I'm still very much in favour of adding a new 1.9 world to the existing ones.

Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 01:44:30 pm
I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.

I don't understand everyone's repeated complaints about "segregation" of players.  With our teleporting system, I move from the new member world to the old guest world the exact same way that I move within any world.  Unless you are proposing we eliminate /homes or other teleporting, there is no real 'segregation'.  It isn't like anyone is going to walk from one end of the map to the other as a routine way of getting around. 

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either. 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 01:53:10 pm
I know where you're coming from Ozzy and I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but you have to understand like you said the money/market system is man made, it's something that was there when the the smp server was created and it's there now, so of course you're going to be used to relying on it because it's what makes the most sense to you. I'm just saying that perhaps the removal of such a thing could bring new aspects of survival to the table and new ways to trade, or perhaps even the total reinvention of economy built up by the players themselves by being inventive. That's what kind of gameplay I like to see at least.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 03:05:46 pm
I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.

I don't understand everyone's repeated complaints about "segregation" of players.  With our teleporting system, I move from the new member world to the old guest world the exact same way that I move within any world.  Unless you are proposing we eliminate /homes or other teleporting, there is no real 'segregation'.  It isn't like anyone is going to walk from one end of the map to the other as a routine way of getting around. 

If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

Some players are saying the wipe should be back on the table. I'm glad it's not.
I voted "I support some of them" as in "No Wipe but I like the other ideas." If the wipe would have been back on the table, my vote would be "No".
And I know some other people who would do the same, eg Roza would change her Yes into a No.
Don't let the result of this pol cloud your vision because the amount of No voters would be a lot bigger if the wipe was back on the table.

Some players keep mentioning a wipe because they have reached their endgame. I'd like to repeat, what's stopping you from starting over yourself? Please don't drag us all down with you by asking for a full wipe.
IF there would be a wipe and all players would be put together on a new world, how long do you think it would take before the first one is bored again? Months? Weeks? Days? Then what? A new wipe? And another? And another?
A wipe doesn't solve the fact that certain players reach their limit in MC quite fast while others can continue for many years. Some players simply lack the imagination, drive, passion, knowledge, will, (IQ?) etc. etc. to keep going.

As far as i'm aware, you cant change your vote once you have voted, so anyone who voted no is still recorded as a no in the poll. Very few people have voted since we have took the first option off. Keep in mind that even before it was removed, yes was still winning by 4 votes.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 24, 2016, 03:19:15 pm
As far as i'm aware, you cant change your vote once you have voted, so anyone who voted no is still recorded as a no in the poll. Very few people have voted since we have took the first option off. Keep in mind that even before it was removed, yes was still winning by 4 votes.
I'm just saying that at the time that I voted it said the wipe was off the table. If it goes back on then I should have the right to change my vote. Otherwise there's no reason to have a poll at all. Afterwards you could just change it the way you like.

Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 03:36:55 pm
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange. 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 03:53:07 pm
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.
How would this reduce player cooperation at all? I honestly don't see how having money increases peoples willingness to work together. In fact, I would argue that it would increase cooperation because instead of being able to buy all the blocks and stuff that you want, you're more likely to team up with others to survive and build.

The player trading system would be block for block, it creates more of a fail safe so someone doesn't take your stuff then not give you theirs. If players wanted, they could create a currency in game by using gold or something but having an overall currency for the server is something we want to get rid of. It turns the survival server into an economy server where its all about getting money.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: 100penguin. on March 24, 2016, 04:03:25 pm
Oh, I didn't mean a 'theme' as such dk, but more how I saw it as being. It's one of the few servers where wipes don't occur, and I'm aware this is one of Optical's principals. It is definitely a personal opinion though, and a circumstantial matter.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 24, 2016, 04:09:10 pm
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.
If players wanted, they could create a currency in game by using gold or something but having an overall currency for the server is something we want to get rid of. It turns the survival server into an economy server where its all about getting money.

If this is what's seriously being considered then I am opposed to this particular proposal concerning the economy.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 04:15:03 pm
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.
If players wanted, they could create a currency in game by using gold or something but having an overall currency for the server is something we want to get rid of. It turns the survival server into an economy server where its all about getting money.

If this is what's seriously being considered then I am opposed to this particular proposal concerning the economy.
Care to elaborate? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that we wanted to do away with the entire current economy.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 24, 2016, 04:23:11 pm
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
They wouldn't, that's the point.

The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system"  That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something).  Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists.  Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy. 

The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions.  There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers).  It is a fundamental part of economics.  See this basic presentation on the matter. (http://www.slideshare.net/knorman31/advantages-of-a-monetary-system-over-barter)

Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work.  I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city).  I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc.  Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me.  Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want.  Then what?  Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down. 

If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be?  Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items.  Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs.  64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc.  Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone?  Imagine if other people wanted to sell things?  We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods.  Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.

Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier.  If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando.  Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction.  This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds.  No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical.  No country or society uses it either.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.

If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that.  I think that is a very big change, and a bad one.  I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here.  Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.

But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.
If players wanted, they could create a currency in game by using gold or something but having an overall currency for the server is something we want to get rid of. It turns the survival server into an economy server where its all about getting money.

If this is what's seriously being considered then I am opposed to this particular proposal concerning the economy.
Care to elaborate? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that we wanted to do away with the entire current economy.
Removal of the current economy system does not necessarily equate with no economy at all. I think that was the confusion. I am for a change to the economy, but not there being no economy at all.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: VoreReznor on March 24, 2016, 04:25:05 pm
I want to go over my reasons for a server wipe.
 Lots of people are talking about needing more area.  I am feeling that our problem in this matter isn't lack of land it is that we have too much land.  Adding new Worlds without destroying old ones will just make it worse.  When we have new players join they have the choice of 4 huge worlds where they can possible build, 2 if they don't become members.  This is really overwhelming.  I think to grow members we really need to catch attention in the first few moments of playing.

It would be nice if new players joined and they were forced into a couple different options where they can start off. 

As I am typing this I am thinking maybe this is an issue we can solve without wiping, maybe we can implement a couple server run "Villages" where new players can join.  I would really like to see more communities with multi players.  Maybe someone has a better idea on how to achieve that?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 04:36:20 pm
Removal of the current economy system does not necessarily equate with no economy at all. I think that was the confusion. I am for a change to the economy, but not there being no economy at all.
[/quote]Well that's what a survival server is. There could be an economy, it would just have to be created and maintained by the players themselves. That was the reason why the trading system would be there.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 04:40:55 pm

If this is what's seriously being considered then I am opposed to this particular proposal concerning the economy.
Care to elaborate? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that we wanted to do away with the entire current economy.
Removal of the current economy system does not necessarily equate with no economy at all. I think that was the confusion. I am for a change to the economy, but not there being no economy at all.

Agreed.  What I was expecting (and a few other people mentioned here in the thread) was replacing the current market (which creates blocks out of thin air for fixed prices) with a totally player-run economy, where we have chest shops of some kind (or an in-game GUI or something) that lets us buy and sell goods with other players.  This has been discussed on the forum many times before and it always seemed to be a popular idea.   I, like Hedgehog, was in favor of this (strongly!). But very much against what you are proposing now.  Getting rid of it all seems like a rather drastic option.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 24, 2016, 04:48:51 pm
Removal of the current economy system does not necessarily equate with no economy at all. I think that was the confusion. I am for a change to the economy, but not there being no economy at all.
Well that's what a survival server is. There could be an economy, it would just have to be created and maintained by the players themselves. That was the reason why the trading system would be there.
[/quote]I don't see how money is a problem in a player maintained economy.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 24, 2016, 08:22:33 pm
The main reason I am for a server wipe, as I briefly mentioned above, is to pretty much level the playing field again. Adding new worlds doesnít work very well when old players that have vast amounts of resources such as armor, weapons, pearls for travel, and food can quickly run through the worlds, claim their lands, usually larger than they need, and quickly develop a build while newer players have to take their time to get settled in. The most recent case is the new end world. I would be willing to bet every castle was raided, claimed or deconstructed for materials within the first day or two.
This is why I believe the server should be wiped and the worlds put up for downloads. A fresh start would be a nice chance of pace.
So you have a problem with the differences in wealth. Contrary to real life where wealth is obtained over the backs of others, in Minecraft everyone could be equally wealthy. All one has to do is put some effort into it.
If there would be a wipe, how long do you think it would take before there would be large differences again? I'd say just a day or two. That makes the "wipe to establish a level playing field"-argument void.
Your example of the so called End Cities is false too. The End has no border, it has an unlimited amount of End Cities. If players have raided the ones closest to the portal, you just have to travel a bit further to find untouched End Cities.

A wipe is a short term solution that would only make a small group of players "happy" for a short period of time. It would be devastating for the rest of the players and for the server as a whole.

The only reason for a wipe would be that the server cannot handle our worlds. In that case we have a much bigger problem than anyone has realised so far.

but the people that are saying it are saying it for themselves, not others
Them saying they already reached their endgame is one thing. I doubt anyone has a problem with them saying that. But asking for a wipe is something completely different.
A wipe would not only mean a wipe for themselves, but also for others.
Let them find a solution for themselves, not one that is a disaster for others.

I understand very well that some players already have reached their limit in MC, their endgame. But does that mean they should ruÔn it for others by asking the server to be wiped? They can simply start over for themselves. Just toss your crap into lava.
Does the fact that others are wealthier influence players that are making a new start? It doesn't have to at all. There is plenty of unused land, there is plenty of unmined area (eg below the sea) and there are plenty of ways to get good stuff (eg the new end world). If players aren't lazy they shouldn't have any problem developing themselves!


My argument to wipe the server to level the playing field is not a void point. I am mainly speaking of the newer players vs older players, where as the older players have had more time to play, the newer players would not be able to ever catch up in terms of wealth. And when I say wealth, I am in no means only referring to money, but supplies in general.

You say that if a server wipe were to happen, the division of wealth would be pretty noticeable within the first few days. I disagree, mainly because the players that have overwhelming supplies will no longer have these, there will be no easy way to get back to where they once were. I am also in favor of the economic changes, to get rid of money all together and make the only opportunity to get resources that players have is to either get it themselves or work with others in order to get it. If farms still arise after that, I am perfectly fine with it, but players will not have such things as the market to help them get there, things like the price of melons helping them get all the money they would ever need to help support their later farms.

You are correct in calling me out on end cities, I was not aware that the end was now infinite, however, I assume there is still a boarder on it as there is with the main worlds and nether worlds, so there is still a finite supply of these cities.


"A wipe is a short term solution that would only make a small group of players "happy" for a short period of time. It would be devastating for the rest of the players and for the server as a whole."
How is adding new worlds also not a sort term solution? As I have said before, I can't see this going on forever, at some point, the worlds will have to go, but certainly not be erased. As for you saying that it would make a "small group of players "happy"" and a wipe being devastating to the rest of the players, I believe there are currently more votes yes than no in the poll, and were so even before the wipe was off the table.


"I understand very well that some players already have reached their limit in MC, their endgame. But does that mean they should ruÔn it for others by asking the server to be wiped? They can simply start over for themselves. Just toss your crap into lava."
I suppose you could say that denying a server wipe would also ruin the game for the players that are for it. Obviously the concept of starting over on your own has been brought up before, even before this discussion occurred, yet people are still in favor of a wipe.

At this point, there's two majorities, ones for a wipe and ones against it. One side is most likely going to lose, I can't see any middle ground other that what has been posted which hasn't received much attention other than "No". Perhaps another way to go about this is to stop trying to defend our own sides and keep pitching ideas that encompass both out comes. I have said I can't see any way that can happen, and you can say that too, but we will never find out unless we focus on those particular discussions rather then our individual sides.


The one I've failed to put there in the 'against' column however is the one that I believe in - it goes against what Opticraft was always meant to be like.

...

They should be kept on the principal that that's what opticraft's about.

...

Penguin is against world wipes because it goes against the theme of opticraft
I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.

I also have to disagree with this. To me, Opticraft has always been about change, some embraced it and others hated it. I wasn't really around for this, but the shift from classic to smp, some players hated it, others from classic were all for it. There are also things changes from the additions and reductions to the market, to trying new things like the pvp system, the creative server, and now Optiquest, to the changes in player counts, to the changes in people themselves, leaving and joining, gaining rank and becoming staff. Each new person also has need ideas and each new staff member has new ways of doing things and ideas to contribute. The only thing that doesn't change on Opticraft is what we do with our worlds which I have said many times already, can not go on. At some point, worlds will have to be taken down, but certainly not erased, they will still exist in some fashion.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Roza on March 25, 2016, 02:35:56 am
first a complete wipe is off the table and discussing it further creates division among players, so lets move on to the economy

I believe that having a player based economy will not equalize the playing field, those who are adapt at redstone afk massive farms will still prevail and set the rates, usually beyond what regular players can afford and it will do nothing to eliminate or control these massive builds.  It was pointed out to me that my public guardian farm has generally provided a limitless supply of these blocks for the entire server, and that guardian farms are massive and ugly.  I built the farm and my private one because I wanted to build an ocean monument, and I personally felt the market price of the blocks was to high as well as the price set by other players.  If we were points driven (as I understand the proposed change, although my view point may be incorrect), and player trade driven I would still have made the farms, maybe taken a little longer but I would have made them all the same.

I would like to see a market economy, I chose this server not just because of who played on it but because it offered the best of both worlds, survival and economy combined to leave the choice up to the individual player as to how they want to play the game.  Yes some people went farm crazy and built massive redstone run farms, others ignore the market and play on survivor basis only, and some do a combination of those choices.  I believe that a points system will not change this except to limit the players ability to obtain blocks previously purchased at market.  The point is, this system allows players to decide how they want to play the game and that its their own choices that make the game fun or boring.

someone asked what it is that I as player who voted no to the complete wipe do to keep from getting bored, its simple, I look at interior design magazines, and wonder if I could possible do that in minecraft, or I watch a rerun of an old favorite movie (now you know where Astoria came from) and I think, that would be fun, after google searches to see if it was already done on mc, I discovered really not so great attempts, so I made my own attempt.  Now I am trying to build as many farms in one place redstone free.  they are all manual, except the iron farm that I bought and built around
and at the same time make it appealing to look around the entire place.  When I take a walk or a drive and I see some really interesting building, or maybe just one aspect of that building, I keep it in mind in case I can use that feature in a build.  sometimes they work out great and others fail miserable, but I keep trying because I like it.

I also like to play here because I feel safe playing this game with my grandchildren on this server.  We live far apart and this server and game has made it possible to be involved in their lives.  Opticalza has made a terrific server and there have been many staff over the years who have helped along the way, some ideas were successful and some not so much.  I believe all have added value to the community and made it the server I enjoy now, so thank you all.

On a final note: Before you vote for change, we must ask ourselves what is the purpose of this change and will it be effective in accomplishing our goal?  So I ask you, what is the purpose of changing to a  point system, what are the specific new rules and regulations to accompany it, and why do you think it will achieve your goal?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 25, 2016, 03:31:28 am
first a complete wipe is off the table and discussing it further creates division among players, so lets move on to the economy.

This is a discussion, nothing is set in stone therefore it can still be discussed and there are plenty of people willing to support it that didn't get a chance to before it was taken off the list. Obviously if players are still talking about it and supporting it, it may have been taken off the table prematurely and there was never really a reason provided as to why it was taken off, especially when there are several votes for it. If players want to support it, they may do so, if they wish to oppose it, they may do so.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 25, 2016, 12:50:30 pm
My argument to wipe the server to level the playing field is not a void point. I am mainly speaking of the newer players vs older players, where as the older players have had more time to play, the newer players would not be able to ever catch up in terms of wealth. And when I say wealth, I am in no means only referring to money, but supplies in general.

You say that if a server wipe were to happen, the division of wealth would be pretty noticeable within the first few days. I disagree, mainly because the players that have overwhelming supplies will no longer have these, there will be no easy way to get back to where they once were. I am also in favor of the economic changes, to get rid of money all together and make the only opportunity to get resources that players have is to either get it themselves or work with others in order to get it. If farms still arise after that, I am perfectly fine with it, but players will not have such things as the market to help them get there, things like the price of melons helping them get all the money they would ever need to help support their later farms.

You are correct in calling me out on end cities, I was not aware that the end was now infinite, however, I assume there is still a boarder on it as there is with the main worlds and nether worlds, so there is still a finite supply of these cities.

But it is a void point! After a whipe the current situation would appear again, farms would be built again and large differences will be noticeable within a few days.
You speak of the use of the market to build farms. I didn't use the market at all for my farms. When I joined I began at zero and there were players with millions. That didn't hinder me in any way to build and develop myself and look where I am now. New players wouldn't be able to catch up? I did!

Regarding the new end world, yes you are right, there could be a border (the  borders are  somewhere but it is unlikely because I'm already 30.000 blocks out and the cities keep coming. (And that's just in one straight direction.) So the amount of cities is overwhelming and more than enough for hundreds possibly thousands of players.




Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the developement, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My developement would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.




Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 25, 2016, 01:55:02 pm
Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the development, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My development would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.

I couldn't agree more! 

I believe that having a player based economy will not equalize the playing field, those who are adapt at redstone afk massive farms will still prevail and set the rates, usually beyond what regular players can afford and it will do nothing to eliminate or control these massive builds.  It was pointed out to me that my public guardian farm has generally provided a limitless supply of these blocks for the entire server, and that guardian farms are massive and ugly.  I built the farm and my private one because I wanted to build an ocean monument, and I personally felt the market price of the blocks was to high as well as the price set by other players.  If we were points driven (as I understand the proposed change, although my view point may be incorrect), and player trade driven I would still have made the farms, maybe taken a little longer but I would have made them all the same.

I would like to see a market economy, I chose this server not just because of who played on it but because it offered the best of both worlds, survival and economy combined to leave the choice up to the individual player as to how they want to play the game.  Yes some people went farm crazy and built massive redstone run farms, others ignore the market and play on survivor basis only, and some do a combination of those choices.  I believe that a points system will not change this except to limit the players ability to obtain blocks previously purchased at market.  The point is, this system allows players to decide how they want to play the game and that its their own choices that make the game fun or boring.

It looks like there is a lot of confusion over what is being proposed.  I was very confused as well.  I'll try to break it down:

Our Current Economic System
Our current economy contains three main elements.  I think folks who identify bad results are blaming the wrong element, and want to throw the whole thing out the window.  What our current economy has is:

Currency - A virtual currency (money) that players can exchange and accumulate.  They can use the money to buy protection stones, blocks (from other players, or the server-run market), pay each other for doing jobs/helping out, buy builds/property from others, and give away as gifts.  This currency could be called dollars, or money, or points, or any other term, but its purpose remains the same, to be a 'medium of exchange' and make it much easier to exchange goods and services.  Currency is merely a symbol that represents the value of an item. 

Player Trading - We are currently able to give, sell, buy or trade goods and services with each other.  We can set whatever price (even free!) we want.  This is (with an important caveat) set by supply and demand.  A few years ago it was very hard to get a dragon egg, they were very rare, so people were successfully selling them for $50,000 or more.  Now they are much more common so the price has dropped.  This is what happens when players are free to trade things with each other. 

Server-run Market - This, we are all familiar with, is a market owned and operated by the server itself.  Prices are fixed and never/rarely change.  The blocks sold at the market are conjured out of thin air.  They are not harvested within the game (like goods players trade).  Having an infinite supply of blocks (and an infinite demand for blocks) makes it very easy to build up lots of money and avoid harvesting things yourself.  This does, as some point out, remove some of the survival aspect of the server.  All the big issues we've had with the economy in the past (melons, iron, gold) have been driven by this infinite, artificial, server-run market that will buy something forever.  Removing melons from the market killed the incentive to make melon farms.  Removing iron & gold from the market has greatly reduced the incentive to make iron & gold farms, but not completely destroyed it, because those blocks are still useful for players.

Nick's Proposed Economic System

No Currency - Nick proposes eliminating currency.  We will no longer be able to buy blocks from each other.  We will no longer be able to pay someone $1,000 to help us dig out a hole.  We will no longer be able to buy a mansion or castle from another player.  We will no longer be able to sell access to an iron farm or enderman farm.  He doesn't just want to create a "points system" in place of a "money system".  Points will be separate.  He wants to get rid of currency altogether.

Player Trading - Nick intends to keep player trading, but without currency it will become extremely difficult.  So difficult, in my view, that no one will do it.  We will be left with nothing but primitive barter.  We can give our blocks for someone else's blocks directly.  If I have stone and you have iron, I better hope you want stone in exchange or we won't be interested in trading.   It will be a very cumbersome, inefficient & time-consuming way of trading. 

No Server-run Market - This will be gone (and good riddance).  But Nick did mention being able to buy protection & rare items with "points".  That's fine, since we would need some way to get those items.  It is just a question of what is considered a rare item.

A Player-Run Proposed Economic System
This is what I (and many others here) would like to see. 

Currency - We'd keep a currency (call it points or money, I don't care).  I'm fine with zeroing out everyone's balances so we can start from scratch (or reducing everyone to a few thousand bucks).  As in any other economic model we'd have to tweak the money supply, but overall having currency is hugely helpful.  There are just too many things that can't be bartered for.

Player Trading - This would exist, largely as it does now, with players able to buy/sell things to other players at whatever price they agree to.  They can sell access to their farm, or sell their entire build, or trade blocks/items, etc.  It'd be a free market and the fairest, most open system we could have.  The only change is that there would be some new mechanism (sign shops, auction system, or GUI trading platform) that facilitates the buying & selling of blocks between players.

No Server-run Market - This would be gone.  No more infinite supply of blocks.  The only way to get something is to dig it out of the ground or grow it.  This would eliminate all the price distortion that exists because of the server-run market.  Items that people produce will be items that others need.  No more giant melon farms or other silly ways to exploit the system. 

I contend that the problem with our current economy isn't the fact that we have money.  The problem is that there is a server-run market that buys & sells infinite amounts of items.  Get rid of the server-run market, make it easier for players to buy & sell with each other, and we'll be set.

On a final note: Before you vote for change, we must ask ourselves what is the purpose of this change and will it be effective in accomplishing our goal?  So I ask you, what is the purpose of changing to a  point system, what are the specific new rules and regulations to accompany it, and why do you think it will achieve your goal?

I agree this is something we should discuss (I did my best to lay it all out above). What do people feel is the current problem with the economy (my simple answer is the server-run market)?  And how would you propose fixing it? 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 25, 2016, 02:20:00 pm
My proposed system is to turn this into an actual survival server, the points are only there so players can buy protection for their builds.
When we were first launching this server, optical, relkeb and I discussed player shops, we came to the conclusion that it was too messy and too hard to maintain which is why we went with the server market. I'm not sure if anything has changed since then to prevent it from being a total mess.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on March 25, 2016, 03:29:42 pm
My argument to wipe the server to level the playing field is not a void point. I am mainly speaking of the newer players vs older players, where as the older players have had more time to play, the newer players would not be able to ever catch up in terms of wealth. And when I say wealth, I am in no means only referring to money, but supplies in general.

You say that if a server wipe were to happen, the division of wealth would be pretty noticeable within the first few days. I disagree, mainly because the players that have overwhelming supplies will no longer have these, there will be no easy way to get back to where they once were. I am also in favor of the economic changes, to get rid of money all together and make the only opportunity to get resources that players have is to either get it themselves or work with others in order to get it. If farms still arise after that, I am perfectly fine with it, but players will not have such things as the market to help them get there, things like the price of melons helping them get all the money they would ever need to help support their later farms.

You are correct in calling me out on end cities, I was not aware that the end was now infinite, however, I assume there is still a boarder on it as there is with the main worlds and nether worlds, so there is still a finite supply of these cities.

But it is a void point! After a whipe the current situation would appear again, farms would be built again and large differences will be noticeable within a few days.
You speak of the use of the market to build farms. I didn't use the market at all for my farms. When I joined I began at zero and there were players with millions. That didn't hinder me in any way to build and develop myself and look where I am now. New players wouldn't be able to catch up? I did!

Regarding the new end world, yes you are right, there could be a border (the  borders are  somewhere but it is unlikely because I'm already 30.000 blocks out and the cities keep coming. (And that's just in one straight direction.) So the amount of cities is overwhelming and more than enough for hundreds possibly thousands of players.




Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the developement, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My developement would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.

I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 25, 2016, 03:35:23 pm
Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

The reason those farms got out of control was because of the server-run market which bought infinite quantities of them, not because currency existed.

If someone builds something useful/beautiful/interesting and others want to pay them for access, why should we stand in the way?  No one is harmed by it.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: HarryTheGuerilla on March 25, 2016, 04:09:37 pm
I vote no for a few reasons. But I can also tolerate a few of these ideas.

Firstly a complete wipe of the worlds would be ridiculous. there are so many buildings under construction and many more buildings that are in use. Many of these buildings are massive and they took a long time to build. Sure a world download could be cool to have so that those buildings get used, but it would not be the same as coming onto opticraft. I personally come on opticraft because of all the buildings I have made over the years as well as coming on to build more.

PVP everywhere is a terrible idea, the entire reason i have stayed on Opticraft for years and years is because there was no PVP. I do not like having to have the best armor and to have to worry about people coming after me when I am trying to build. However why not make a PVP only world in a 1.9 world. This way people who want PVP and new world can go to the new world, and at the same time they can still talk in chat.

Yes the economy is broke, but removing it would be a bad idea, the economy is what kept so many people on here. When the server removed selling iron blocks, melons, and pumpkins, a lot of people left the server because of that. So removing the economy would drive the few remaining people away. Yes I understand that the AFK farming of those blocks was bad but it drove a lot of people away. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
As for the removal of the server market, I would say no. That market is not a bad thing it is just dysfunctional. The prices of blocks need to be re-assessed and Protection stones should not cost so much. As others have said Protections stones cost way too much. Although the prices are a lot better than what they used to be.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Tobs on March 25, 2016, 05:02:54 pm
PVP everywhere is a terrible idea, the entire reason i have stayed on Opticraft for years and years is because there was no PVP. I do not like having to have the best armor and to have to worry about people coming after me when I am trying to build. However why not make a PVP only world in a 1.9 world. This way people who want PVP and new world can go to the new world, and at the same time they can still talk in chat.
We will not be adding PvP everywhere, merely expanding on the current PvP system that we have (which is currently half-assed). Opticraft has never primarily been about PvP, however since very early on a fun PvP system has been something a lot of people have wanted.

I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
This is what everyone is discussing currently, if we didn't care we would go ahead and remove it without even talking about it. Removing specific blocks is a completely different matter, we had left them able to be sold for months - not to mention giving everyone a weeks notice, but that's beating a dead horse.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 25, 2016, 05:54:22 pm
. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
You are aware that this topic is the discussion that you speak of right? I mean there's a poll and everything.  It is not just staff that wants a change in the economy (some staff don't) but it is also the players as yes is currently winning in the poll. Not everyone is going to like change, but if the majority wants it, it will occur.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 25, 2016, 06:07:34 pm
. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.
You are aware that this topic is the discussion that you speak of right? I mean there's a poll and everything.  It is not just staff that wants a change in the economy (some staff don't) but it is also the players as yes is currently winning in the poll. Not everyone is going to like change, but if the majority wants it, it will occur.

Only 40% voted for 'yes'.  And several of those after the world wipe was taken off the table.  Several more of those 'yes' votes were before they understood what exactly you were proposing for the economy. 

If you want a useful poll you should have everyone vote on each proposal individually since "I support some of them" is a bit hard to get usable information out of.  Also each proposal should be explained (perhaps alternates offered) otherwise people who think we should have a player-run economy as I described would vote for your "addition of player trading system" option which is very different than what they'd want.

But yes, I am thankful for this discussion and give you guys total credit for starting it off and hashing it out with all the players here.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:05:03 am
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.



It is just a question of what is considered a rare item.
I guess that would be things like:
-Beacons
-Sponge
-Heads/skulls

Maybe:
-Horse armour
-Saddles
-Elytra
-Spawneggs
-Nametags
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 12:53:38 am
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 02:46:39 am
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.

Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop

Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).

And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 08:57:13 am
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 09:11:18 am
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:51:26 pm
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: gavin on March 26, 2016, 01:45:42 pm
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
simply give all the money to me and I will appropriately divide it out
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Daenir on March 26, 2016, 03:21:24 pm
While I have not played much on the server in a while, I do think a server reset would be great. The worlds are covered in old projects that are: 1. Unfinished 2. Griefed or 3. Just ghost towns. These are some of the things that are possibly making people uninterested in playing. They have done everything already, or they do not have the drive to build what they started because it has probably been partially destroyed and forgotten. I do not mind any changes to the economy, but I feel that PvP will make some players leave for sure and others play more often. While I am not bad at PvP, I do get sick of kids always trying to kill out of bloodlust and destroy everything out of immaturity. These are just my thoughts, and as a side not, I would just like to say I can't wait to see what OptiQuest is like.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 07:06:57 pm
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?

I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 07:45:56 pm
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.

Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop

Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).

And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).
Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 08:00:43 pm
I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.

Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.

You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.

I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.

And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy.  That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned  that idea due the the mentioned problem.

Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop

Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).

And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).
Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 28, 2016, 03:41:03 pm
I found a few options for an economy plugin:

http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/gui-seller-shop
http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/gui-shop/

https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/hshop.18980/
https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/better-shops.1758/

The first two are GUI shops, the second two use signs/chests.  Unfortunately most of the ones I've found haven't yet been updated to 1.9.  Though I imagine that'll be coming soon, it hasn't been out for long.  A lot of the plugins have rather poor explanations/documentation, but I'm at work and don't have all that much time to investigate.  Plus I've never run a server so don't know precisely what I should be looking for, but there definitely seem to be options.

A GUI shop would be ideal, and it looks like there are a few options out there, but even a sign/chest shop wouldn't be so bad.  We could put limits on it to stop spam. 

It sounds like there are two concerns about sign shop mess/spam:
1. Lots of people advertising their shops in chat.
2. Lots of signs/chests placed all over the place and looking cluttered/messy.

For the first concern, it doesn't sound much different than what we have now.  We have the /t chat room for people to ask for things to buy and offer things to sell.  That happens now, and would still happen even if money were abolished and we all had to barter.  Players can leave that chat room to avoid it.

For the second concern, one option would be to have a limited number of shops that could be created in a central market (we can repurpose the current market).  And we could proscribe how they look (not placed in random places in the walkway or anything).  Further regulations, either through a tax/fee, or time limit, or just booting out vacant shops could ensure the shops in the space are active. 

Personally I wouldn't mind allowing people to set up shops in their own homes/cities.  It would be neat to set up automated shops in all the restaurants & businesses I've created in my city.  And looking through the abandoned homes of old players it looks like during Opticraft's heyday there were quite a lot of player-run shops, so it looks like players enjoy making them.  Maybe you could restrict sign shops to only be in protected areas (i.e. not in no-man's land outside of spawns).  I'm sure it could be managed.

Whether we have a GUI or signs, I think it would be an improved system.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: OzzyKP on March 28, 2016, 03:50:04 pm
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).


Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).

I agree with everything Hedgehog's suggested about the money supply and avoiding a spamfest of chests.  But again, there looks to be some GUI-based economy plugins out there.

I think giving money as a voting reward would be a less disruptive reward than diamonds, and would be a good way to get money into the system.  But, as Hedgehog mentioned, could result in ever increasing inflation.  We could also make the money supply dependent on certain resources that have to be mined (i.e. nothing that could ever be farmed), like gold or iron ore.  Players could trade those in for money at a fixed rate.  I dunno, just a thought. 
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: HoaxZ on March 28, 2016, 11:17:35 pm
concerning the economy changes, if its points or money they are basically the same thing just different names. it is a form of currency you are using so in the long term there will be no difference if you kept with money or switched to a point system they both do the same thing and work the same way. you get money/points, you use them to buy said material. so i do not see the necessity of changing to a point system if its just going to be a new currency instead just change the way currency is used and works. if there is still to be a market of sorts then changing it to points is not really a change but the name. i just don't see the point in changing to point instead of in game money if they do a very similar thing. you can change how to get currency, how to spend it and how much value it is worth but the name of it can stay the same those who have paid real money for their currency it was said will be reimbursed to the equivalent of what they received in the new currency. its easy to do just look at what the worth of the currency is now and what you will change it to and work it out from that. i think that is a good idea for those who paid real money so they don't loose out on it. as for starting with money, i assumed we already did with a small amount but i don't see it  to be relevant as your trying to make it a survival world with the option of a market, that was the reason for its use. if people come for survival they do not need in game money and if they desperately need something and are often online usually if someone has a lot of it they give them it or trade with other items anyway. its only for things such as quarts, beacons, mob heads for some that you actually might have to go to the market for as you cant get a beacon with out doing so. i don't see any issues with what we have now but if you want it harder to use farms for getting money Ozzy is right in just making unfarmable blocks sellable to the market. if you are thinking having players sell the items then they will mine it themselves sell it in their own stores and charge their prices and if they leave then another store closes. eventually we will end up where we are now with a group who all help each other and 10-20 online at any time max.

what i would like to see is not a headline of a change that is being considered but a description of what you wish to change, why, how, and the impact you believe it will create pro's and cons. and basically what you want to achieve by the changes. this way we can all look over it understand exactly what you are thinking of and give a more constructive output to help you all decide what to do. as right now a lot has been said and some of us could have the wrong idea of what you mean and we don't have the full picture.

- "Simplification or removal of the economy system." its pretty simple already, just it works for some not others i'm still unsure of what is wrong with it.

- "Addition of pvp modes" we already have pvp arenas which are fun and your own fault if you loose stuff there. what sort of pvp do you have in mind and where?

- "Addition of a player trading system." can you explain what you want brought in as we can already trade with in game money to each other, some people have built their own shops and trade between themselves. we even have a trade chat for it, so i am unclear on what new is being looked at.

- "Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items." if you keep the economy with a market you can already buy rare things there. this seems like just another currency to me and when voting (although broken) you gain "points/votes" and the top 3 win prizes anyway. and doing everyday survival things and getting points for it i don't see how that will work. could you explain.
and why points why not in game money. it will be silly to have 2 currency's so if done this way and a market/player trading they would all have to be the same currency.

- "Change to a player defined protection field system" what do you mean by this? the protection stones we have are good but it you mean you get a patch of land and can protect it say by 20x20 from build height to bedrock then sounds good or you build a wall and the size determines cost say a 10x10 cost 100 IGM (in game money) a 20x20 cost 200 IGM 30x30 300 IGM and so on. (its just an example to simplify what i mean) but i would like to know more.

I write all this with the utmost respect for all staff, i know it is not easy and there is a lot to do and a lot to consider that i am unaware even exists. I just like to know more in depth of all changes to help make this server great. and are we looking to make the server better for the players who play or to bring in new members? what is the overall goal?. if you want new members i would happily discuss advertising and ways to boost it that does not require any or little funds.

I apologize for the long post I feel more information is needed as i explained at the beginning what info i wanted to know, i hope i didn't bore you too much i know I've missed info lost in this thread or some of it has been spoke about so much I've lost the plot all together but i look forward to hearing in detail more on all matters.

HoaxZ
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 29, 2016, 12:42:26 am
Pretty much all of that has been explained in previous posts.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: SonicHogSpeed on March 29, 2016, 01:22:21 pm
I've literally read every single reply to this topic, and what all the recent discussion comes down to is the server's economy and world/space management.

For what I've read, people don't seem very keen on moving from a currency-based trading system to a "points" system, which seems to be getting a lot of misunderstanding, yet is understandable to me why it does: Nick's main point for changing to a point system sounds like a complete transfer to a Survival style of play that discourages trading (player interaction) and encourages scavenging for yourself. Of course, this isn't the whole picture, but it's a selling point.

In Singleplayer, I've gained the tendency to gather my wood then stone tools; hop in caves; stock on iron gear; then just run around 'till I lag my world jump in more caves for diamonds and etc., occasionally strip mining. All that usually for the purpose of "finishing" the game.
I've pretty much been doing the same thing on the server when I do come online. My home was set up by my cousin's friends in the Old Guest World (in the sky, probably scared of griefers, unaware of PSs and any other Opti staples). The only reason why I wouldn't want a server wipe is because of nostalgia and the fact that I've "worked" on it since I joined.
The attractiveness of a server wipe is a "fresh start" for everyone, including old time members. For some, not all, old players, it would be extremely unfair for all their hard work to just disappear but still be playing on the "same" server where they once had all of it.
If it was an established tradition to reset the server annually (or some time), then it wouldn't sound so harsh. However, it is not that way, and some people have invested a lot of their time and dedication to such projects.

The more people try to defend such an action, the more it looks like socialism; the same can be said for the currency wipe as well. Sure, people may build farms, AFK variants included, but isn't that part of the real world (standing in place for hours not included)? If you want to get places, you need to work for it. Trying to get rid of ways for people to accumulate wealth never ends well (people leaving), neither is distributing wealth equally. Socialism can only work if everyone does his part in the community, but this has never worked in the real world, either.

Excuse me if this looks out of order and confusing, because it's like 3:30 AM and I didn't record my thoughts as I read the whole thread. I was also typing at the speed of sound in molasses.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on March 29, 2016, 04:39:35 pm

The more people try to defend such an action, the more it looks like socialism; the same can be said for the currency wipe as well. Sure, people may build farms, AFK variants included, but isn't that part of the real world (standing in place for hours not included)? If you want to get places, you need to work for it. Trying to get rid of ways for people to accumulate wealth never ends well (people leaving), neither is distributing wealth equally. Socialism can only work if everyone does his part in the community, but this has never worked in the real world, either.

Excuse me if this looks out of order and confusing, because it's like 3:30 AM and I didn't record my thoughts as I read the whole thread. I was also typing at the speed of sound in molasses.
This is a minecraft server, not the real world. All we want to do is make the survival server an actual survival server.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Lando_V on March 30, 2016, 04:41:54 pm
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).

Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).

I agree with everything Hedgehog's suggested about the money supply and avoiding a spamfest of chests.  But again, there looks to be some GUI-based economy plugins out there.

I think giving money as a voting reward would be a less disruptive reward than diamonds, and would be a good way to get money into the system.  But, as Hedgehog mentioned, could result in ever increasing inflation.  We could also make the money supply dependent on certain resources that have to be mined (i.e. nothing that could ever be farmed), like gold or iron ore.  Players could trade those in for money at a fixed rate.  I dunno, just a thought.

Looking at all Nick3306's comments the idea is not having any money. I think that was pretty clear from the start and I like it that way for a survival server.

How are diamond rewards for voting disruptive? I think that's a very reasonable alternative for the fact that the amount of land we can mine is very limited. To be honest I don't mind if it stays or goes now that we have the new end world providing us with awesome diamond gear.




The player trading system would be block for block, it creates more of a fail safe so someone doesn't take your stuff then not give you theirs.

Nick3306, could you elaborate on that trading system,  pls?
eg Would it be like a /trade command and a trade menu pops up or signs or chests?
How many stacks could be traded at once? Maybe even double chests full of...dirt or so.
And also, when will all this be implemented?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: kni0002 on April 11, 2016, 06:34:18 am
I would HATE to see the economy go. Thats one of the main reasons I play Opticraft because of the Economy. Although the economy would be more realistic if there were User based shops or an auction/trade system. I also think the server is lacking some publicity. Less players = less votes = less players = less votes
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: mikejones0225 on April 11, 2016, 07:32:17 pm
I'm a big fan of the changes, one suggestion / thing I would like to see is full PVP.  If the world was either fully pvp or had only small protected zones that would be fun.  I feel like it would make the server more interesting to play on.  Also if you got sick of people building afk farms you could always just kill them!
I'm up for some changes
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: UnknownHedgehog on June 04, 2016, 02:38:23 pm
Are smp changes still being considered?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: TheWholeLoaf on June 06, 2016, 12:33:29 am
Everything is in the post and following discussion, it's up to opti now if anything happens. Whether or not he' still thinking out it, I do not know.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Tobs on June 06, 2016, 12:41:50 am
If you have any additional input feel free to add it, as for what has already been said; we've talked about it and not come to any definite decisions/future polls as of yet since we've all been kinda busy so we can still discuss stuff, but it is clear a large amount of players  (48/64 votes, 75%) want some sort of change. I don't know if Nick has attempted any sort of market/pvp replacement coding-wise yet (or if he is planning to). As said before, we don't have any idea when/if stuff will be implemented, and while we can do stuff in-game any plugin changes Optical gets the final stay in.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: Nick3306 on June 06, 2016, 03:45:39 am
If you have any additional input feel free to add it, as for what has already been said; we've talked about it and not come to any definite decisions/future polls as of yet since we've all been kinda busy so we can still discuss stuff, but it is clear a large amount of players  (48/64 votes, 75%) want some sort of change. I don't know if Nick has attempted any sort of market/pvp replacement coding-wise yet (or if he is planning to). As said before, we don't have any idea when/if stuff will be implemented, and while we can do stuff in-game any plugin changes Optical gets the final stay in.
Nothing has been approved by optical so nothing at all has been done.
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: benc117 on June 13, 2016, 12:57:02 am
A server-wide reset would 100% get me back in the game.
I haven't really been following along with the discussion, is a server wipe still being considered?
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: SonicHogSpeed on June 13, 2016, 03:49:56 am
benc, it'd be really informative if you read the first postÖ
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: benc117 on June 16, 2016, 07:17:39 am
oh right lol
Title: Re: Proposed smp changes
Post by: illiwill on June 16, 2016, 07:16:41 pm
So, after reading about 90% of all the posts, here is my opinion for each topic:

Server Wipe- While crossed out, I would very much enjoy a server wipe(but there's a catch). It is clear that the worlds (especially the older ones) are filled with unfinished and abandoned projects, whose builders have been offline for more than 2 years. Why can't we give players room to build over these ghost projects. There are two arguments against a wipe, stating "There's plenty of room to build at the corner" and "It isn't fair to active players on those worlds." For the "room at the corner" argument is true, it isn't fun to travel hundreds of thousands of blocks(minutes and maybe even hours irl) to get to an open, unclaimed area of land to build. To address the "active player" argument, could we not transfer builds from one world to another with say, if possible, World Edit? This would allow small number of active players to continue their build with, now, a much greater area of land, while *weeding* out the inactive for +2 years players? And I would hope for nostalgia, these worlds would be for download.

Simplification/Removal of Economy System- Kinda? As I have read and agree with, the underlying issue with the economy system is that you can buy/sell blocks out of thin air. How economies work irl is through supply/demand, but an artificial economy which has no sense of supply and demand breaks everything. Remember years ago when everyone made those huge automatic melon farms and would sell the melons to the market? That was solely based because of the artificial nature of it. If the melons had to be sold to players, the price of melons would have dropped dramatically(due to them being so plentiful), and the amount of melon farms would have dropped because of it. So what is needed is the removal of the market, while keeping currency, and allowing trading between players through a plugin that allows you to put items in a chest with a sign, and buy through the player made sign(could be refined). This would, at least,
I believe, to fix the broken nature of the economy, as if tons of players are selling cobblestone for $1,000,000 a stack, the players would deem this unreasonable and the price would drop. Maybe voting, instead of giving you diamonds and taking away survival aspect, would give you money(to kick start the economy system)?

PvP Modes- *sigh.* This is a matter(or at least what I have read it to be) of what Opticraft *is.*I personally played Opticraft to survive, explore, and build with my friends. I did not play to PvP. I'm sure refining the PvP mode would attract new players, but would it be Opticraft? That is more of a philosophical question and identity. I an indifferent to this addition.

Player Trading System- See above on Economy System

Points System-No. It seems to me that points would replace the money, and I am against that(see above)

Changed to player defined protection field system- I am not really sure what this entails. Do the players decide where the protection is? This seems to me just like pstones

Also, are we trying to attract newer players or bring back old ones?