Would there be any possibility of moving builds over from Legacy to the new Survival map?
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
Messages - OzzyKP
Too bad that Legacy won't be linked to the new server. It gets lonely over in the old map.
Would there be any possibility of moving builds over from Legacy to the new Survival map?
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).
Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messyWhat if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).
I agree with everything Hedgehog's suggested about the money supply and avoiding a spamfest of chests. But again, there looks to be some GUI-based economy plugins out there.
I think giving money as a voting reward would be a less disruptive reward than diamonds, and would be a good way to get money into the system. But, as Hedgehog mentioned, could result in ever increasing inflation. We could also make the money supply dependent on certain resources that have to be mined (i.e. nothing that could ever be farmed), like gold or iron ore. Players could trade those in for money at a fixed rate. I dunno, just a thought.
I found a few options for an economy plugin:
The first two are GUI shops, the second two use signs/chests. Unfortunately most of the ones I've found haven't yet been updated to 1.9. Though I imagine that'll be coming soon, it hasn't been out for long. A lot of the plugins have rather poor explanations/documentation, but I'm at work and don't have all that much time to investigate. Plus I've never run a server so don't know precisely what I should be looking for, but there definitely seem to be options.
A GUI shop would be ideal, and it looks like there are a few options out there, but even a sign/chest shop wouldn't be so bad. We could put limits on it to stop spam.
It sounds like there are two concerns about sign shop mess/spam:
1. Lots of people advertising their shops in chat.
2. Lots of signs/chests placed all over the place and looking cluttered/messy.
For the first concern, it doesn't sound much different than what we have now. We have the /t chat room for people to ask for things to buy and offer things to sell. That happens now, and would still happen even if money were abolished and we all had to barter. Players can leave that chat room to avoid it.
For the second concern, one option would be to have a limited number of shops that could be created in a central market (we can repurpose the current market). And we could proscribe how they look (not placed in random places in the walkway or anything). Further regulations, either through a tax/fee, or time limit, or just booting out vacant shops could ensure the shops in the space are active.
Personally I wouldn't mind allowing people to set up shops in their own homes/cities. It would be neat to set up automated shops in all the restaurants & businesses I've created in my city. And looking through the abandoned homes of old players it looks like during Opticraft's heyday there were quite a lot of player-run shops, so it looks like players enjoy making them. Maybe you could restrict sign shops to only be in protected areas (i.e. not in no-man's land outside of spawns). I'm sure it could be managed.
Whether we have a GUI or signs, I think it would be an improved system.
. I would support a change in the Economy, however whenever you (the staff) want to do a change, why not ask us here on the forums for our input. That way there can be discussion and people can be happy with a change. But just removing a block based on all of your (the staff) dissucssions, would make people angry like the incidents with the Melon, Pumpkin and Iron blocks.You are aware that this topic is the discussion that you speak of right? I mean there's a poll and everything. It is not just staff that wants a change in the economy (some staff don't) but it is also the players as yes is currently winning in the poll. Not everyone is going to like change, but if the majority wants it, it will occur.
Only 40% voted for 'yes'. And several of those after the world wipe was taken off the table. Several more of those 'yes' votes were before they understood what exactly you were proposing for the economy.
If you want a useful poll you should have everyone vote on each proposal individually since "I support some of them" is a bit hard to get usable information out of. Also each proposal should be explained (perhaps alternates offered) otherwise people who think we should have a player-run economy as I described would vote for your "addition of player trading system" option which is very different than what they'd want.
But yes, I am thankful for this discussion and give you guys total credit for starting it off and hashing it out with all the players here.
Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.
The reason those farms got out of control was because of the server-run market which bought infinite quantities of them, not because currency existed.
If someone builds something useful/beautiful/interesting and others want to pay them for access, why should we stand in the way? No one is harmed by it.
Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.
I couldn't agree more!
I believe that having a player based economy will not equalize the playing field, those who are adapt at redstone afk massive farms will still prevail and set the rates, usually beyond what regular players can afford and it will do nothing to eliminate or control these massive builds. It was pointed out to me that my public guardian farm has generally provided a limitless supply of these blocks for the entire server, and that guardian farms are massive and ugly. I built the farm and my private one because I wanted to build an ocean monument, and I personally felt the market price of the blocks was to high as well as the price set by other players. If we were points driven (as I understand the proposed change, although my view point may be incorrect), and player trade driven I would still have made the farms, maybe taken a little longer but I would have made them all the same.
It looks like there is a lot of confusion over what is being proposed. I was very confused as well. I'll try to break it down:
Our Current Economic System
Our current economy contains three main elements. I think folks who identify bad results are blaming the wrong element, and want to throw the whole thing out the window. What our current economy has is:
Currency - A virtual currency (money) that players can exchange and accumulate. They can use the money to buy protection stones, blocks (from other players, or the server-run market), pay each other for doing jobs/helping out, buy builds/property from others, and give away as gifts. This currency could be called dollars, or money, or points, or any other term, but its purpose remains the same, to be a 'medium of exchange' and make it much easier to exchange goods and services. Currency is merely a symbol that represents the value of an item.
Player Trading - We are currently able to give, sell, buy or trade goods and services with each other. We can set whatever price (even free!) we want. This is (with an important caveat) set by supply and demand. A few years ago it was very hard to get a dragon egg, they were very rare, so people were successfully selling them for $50,000 or more. Now they are much more common so the price has dropped. This is what happens when players are free to trade things with each other.
Server-run Market - This, we are all familiar with, is a market owned and operated by the server itself. Prices are fixed and never/rarely change. The blocks sold at the market are conjured out of thin air. They are not harvested within the game (like goods players trade). Having an infinite supply of blocks (and an infinite demand for blocks) makes it very easy to build up lots of money and avoid harvesting things yourself. This does, as some point out, remove some of the survival aspect of the server. All the big issues we've had with the economy in the past (melons, iron, gold) have been driven by this infinite, artificial, server-run market that will buy something forever. Removing melons from the market killed the incentive to make melon farms. Removing iron & gold from the market has greatly reduced the incentive to make iron & gold farms, but not completely destroyed it, because those blocks are still useful for players.
Nick's Proposed Economic System
No Currency - Nick proposes eliminating currency. We will no longer be able to buy blocks from each other. We will no longer be able to pay someone $1,000 to help us dig out a hole. We will no longer be able to buy a mansion or castle from another player. We will no longer be able to sell access to an iron farm or enderman farm. He doesn't just want to create a "points system" in place of a "money system". Points will be separate. He wants to get rid of currency altogether.
Player Trading - Nick intends to keep player trading, but without currency it will become extremely difficult. So difficult, in my view, that no one will do it. We will be left with nothing but primitive barter. We can give our blocks for someone else's blocks directly. If I have stone and you have iron, I better hope you want stone in exchange or we won't be interested in trading. It will be a very cumbersome, inefficient & time-consuming way of trading.
No Server-run Market - This will be gone (and good riddance). But Nick did mention being able to buy protection & rare items with "points". That's fine, since we would need some way to get those items. It is just a question of what is considered a rare item.
A Player-Run Proposed Economic System
This is what I (and many others here) would like to see.
Currency - We'd keep a currency (call it points or money, I don't care). I'm fine with zeroing out everyone's balances so we can start from scratch (or reducing everyone to a few thousand bucks). As in any other economic model we'd have to tweak the money supply, but overall having currency is hugely helpful. There are just too many things that can't be bartered for.
Player Trading - This would exist, largely as it does now, with players able to buy/sell things to other players at whatever price they agree to. They can sell access to their farm, or sell their entire build, or trade blocks/items, etc. It'd be a free market and the fairest, most open system we could have. The only change is that there would be some new mechanism (sign shops, auction system, or GUI trading platform) that facilitates the buying & selling of blocks between players.
No Server-run Market - This would be gone. No more infinite supply of blocks. The only way to get something is to dig it out of the ground or grow it. This would eliminate all the price distortion that exists because of the server-run market. Items that people produce will be items that others need. No more giant melon farms or other silly ways to exploit the system.
I contend that the problem with our current economy isn't the fact that we have money. The problem is that there is a server-run market that buys & sells infinite amounts of items. Get rid of the server-run market, make it easier for players to buy & sell with each other, and we'll be set.
On a final note: Before you vote for change, we must ask ourselves what is the purpose of this change and will it be effective in accomplishing our goal? So I ask you, what is the purpose of changing to a point system, what are the specific new rules and regulations to accompany it, and why do you think it will achieve your goal?
I agree this is something we should discuss (I did my best to lay it all out above). What do people feel is the current problem with the economy (my simple answer is the server-run market)? And how would you propose fixing it?
Removal of the current economy system does not necessarily equate with no economy at all. I think that was the confusion. I am for a change to the economy, but not there being no economy at all.Care to elaborate? I thought it was pretty clear from the start that we wanted to do away with the entire current economy.
Agreed. What I was expecting (and a few other people mentioned here in the thread) was replacing the current market (which creates blocks out of thin air for fixed prices) with a totally player-run economy, where we have chest shops of some kind (or an in-game GUI or something) that lets us buy and sell goods with other players. This has been discussed on the forum many times before and it always seemed to be a popular idea. I, like Hedgehog, was in favor of this (strongly!). But very much against what you are proposing now. Getting rid of it all seems like a rather drastic option.
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?They wouldn't, that's the point.
If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that. I think that is a very big change, and a bad one. I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here. Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.
But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.
I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.
I don't understand everyone's repeated complaints about "segregation" of players. With our teleporting system, I move from the new member world to the old guest world the exact same way that I move within any world. Unless you are proposing we eliminate /homes or other teleporting, there is no real 'segregation'. It isn't like anyone is going to walk from one end of the map to the other as a routine way of getting around.
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?They wouldn't, that's the point.
The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system" That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something). Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists. Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy.
The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions. There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers). It is a fundamental part of economics. See this basic presentation on the matter.
Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work. I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city). I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc. Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me. Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want. Then what? Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down.
If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be? Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items. Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs. 64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc. Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone? Imagine if other people wanted to sell things? We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods. Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.
Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier. If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando. Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction. This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds. No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical. No country or society uses it either.
there is no renaming anything to anything. If we get rid of the market, all the money is going with it. The points system would just be a tiny system to help players afford protection because there's no more money.that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
Your two points are:
1. There isn't enough open land.
2. We should have a level playing field.
Your first point is simply not true. Even the cluttered and ancient old guest world there is plenty of available space. Look at the right most corner on the overviewer map. Lots of places to build. Plenty more on the other maps.
Your second point just doesn't make sense to me. Minecraft isn't a competition. If your goal is to have more chests full of more blocks than the next guy, then maybe this isn't the right game for you. How does my city, which I've worked on for over 3 years, dampen your enjoyment of the game? Or make anything you build less impressive?
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency?
If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it. But you need *something* besides straight barter.
You don't need to control the point system. That's the beauty of a player-run economy. I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good. The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand. If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop. That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things. Just let things run their course.
If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value. Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground.
If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.
So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot.
I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior. People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points. If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points. The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff.
Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points. They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants. Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them. The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.
Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run
Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be). Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find. They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them). The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.