Discussion forum > Server News
Proposed smp changes
OzzyKP:
--- Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm ---I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.
--- End quote ---
I don't understand everyone's repeated complaints about "segregation" of players. With our teleporting system, I move from the new member world to the old guest world the exact same way that I move within any world. Unless you are proposing we eliminate /homes or other teleporting, there is no real 'segregation'. It isn't like anyone is going to walk from one end of the map to the other as a routine way of getting around.
--- Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 10:51:43 am ---If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
--- End quote ---
They wouldn't, that's the point.
--- End quote ---
The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system" That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something). Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists. Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy.
The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions. There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers). It is a fundamental part of economics. See this basic presentation on the matter.
Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work. I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city). I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc. Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me. Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want. Then what? Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down.
If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be? Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items. Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs. 64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc. Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone? Imagine if other people wanted to sell things? We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods. Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.
Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier. If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando. Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction. This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds. No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical. No country or society uses it either.
DeeKay:
I know where you're coming from Ozzy and I'm not saying you're wrong at all, but you have to understand like you said the money/market system is man made, it's something that was there when the the smp server was created and it's there now, so of course you're going to be used to relying on it because it's what makes the most sense to you. I'm just saying that perhaps the removal of such a thing could bring new aspects of survival to the table and new ways to trade, or perhaps even the total reinvention of economy built up by the players themselves by being inventive. That's what kind of gameplay I like to see at least.
Nick3306:
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 01:44:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm ---I'm going to have to kindly disagree with these points you make. I don't think a theme was ever established, maybe in your eyes, but not as a whole. The the only theme I can see Opticraft having adopted is being set too much in stone to have a fresh start. We've come accustomed to simply adding a new world every time things get messy, and it's become an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction that's caused more problems than it solved. Instead of 1 world lasting one year, we've added more and more worlds which meant more and more segregation of our players. This should also answer your question about adding worlds.
--- End quote ---
I don't understand everyone's repeated complaints about "segregation" of players. With our teleporting system, I move from the new member world to the old guest world the exact same way that I move within any world. Unless you are proposing we eliminate /homes or other teleporting, there is no real 'segregation'. It isn't like anyone is going to walk from one end of the map to the other as a routine way of getting around.
--- Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 10:51:43 am ---If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
--- End quote ---
They wouldn't, that's the point.
--- End quote ---
The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system" That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something). Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists. Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy.
The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions. There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers). It is a fundamental part of economics. See this basic presentation on the matter.
Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work. I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city). I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc. Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me. Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want. Then what? Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down.
If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be? Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items. Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs. 64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc. Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone? Imagine if other people wanted to sell things? We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods. Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.
Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier. If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando. Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction. This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds. No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical. No country or society uses it either.
--- End quote ---
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.
--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 24, 2016, 01:23:13 pm ---Some players are saying the wipe should be back on the table. I'm glad it's not.
I voted "I support some of them" as in "No Wipe but I like the other ideas." If the wipe would have been back on the table, my vote would be "No".
And I know some other people who would do the same, eg Roza would change her Yes into a No.
Don't let the result of this pol cloud your vision because the amount of No voters would be a lot bigger if the wipe was back on the table.
Some players keep mentioning a wipe because they have reached their endgame. I'd like to repeat, what's stopping you from starting over yourself? Please don't drag us all down with you by asking for a full wipe.
IF there would be a wipe and all players would be put together on a new world, how long do you think it would take before the first one is bored again? Months? Weeks? Days? Then what? A new wipe? And another? And another?
A wipe doesn't solve the fact that certain players reach their limit in MC quite fast while others can continue for many years. Some players simply lack the imagination, drive, passion, knowledge, will, (IQ?) etc. etc. to keep going.
--- End quote ---
As far as i'm aware, you cant change your vote once you have voted, so anyone who voted no is still recorded as a no in the poll. Very few people have voted since we have took the first option off. Keep in mind that even before it was removed, yes was still winning by 4 votes.
Lando_V:
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 03:05:46 pm ---As far as i'm aware, you cant change your vote once you have voted, so anyone who voted no is still recorded as a no in the poll. Very few people have voted since we have took the first option off. Keep in mind that even before it was removed, yes was still winning by 4 votes.
--- End quote ---
I'm just saying that at the time that I voted it said the wipe was off the table. If it goes back on then I should have the right to change my vote. Otherwise there's no reason to have a poll at all. Afterwards you could just change it the way you like.
OzzyKP:
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 03:05:46 pm ---
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 01:44:30 pm ---
--- Quote from: DeeKay on March 24, 2016, 12:37:24 pm ---
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 10:51:43 am ---If there is no currency of any kind, then how would players buy/sell items?
--- End quote ---
They wouldn't, that's the point.
--- End quote ---
The first post by Nick said a proposed change was "- Addition of a player trading system" That is extremely difficult without some medium of exchange (i.e. money/points/seashells/something). Forcing everyone to simply barter would be an incredibly bad idea and effectively destroy a lot of the cooperation & resource trading that exists. Plus it misses out on great opportunities that could come from a player-run economy.
The creation of currency is one of the most important human inventions. There is a reason every nation on Earth uses currency instead of barter (and no it isn't because of evil bankers). It is a fundamental part of economics. See this basic presentation on the matter.
Basically, in a world you may envision where we've gotten rid of the server-run market and all the players just have to swap items, this is how it would work. I have a lot of stone (from all my excavating in my city). I'd like to trade it for diamonds, glowstone, iron, etc. Let's say Lando has a lot of diamonds he'd like to give me, but none of his builds use stone, so he isn't interested in trading with me. Let's say penguin wants lots of stone, but doesn't have any glowstone, so doesn't have anything I want. Then what? Then we don't trade and the whole system breaks down.
If we had some kind of sign/chest shop, can you imagine how messy it would be? Let's say, again, that I want to trade stone for different items. Just to sell this one item I'd have to create 20 different shops/signs. 64 stone for 12 glowstone, 32 stone for 10 iron, 40 stone for 1 diamond, 5 stone for 10 sand, 10 stone for 1 porkchop, 20 stone for 30 glass, e tc. Imagine if I wanted to sell more than just stone? Imagine if other people wanted to sell things? We'd have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations of various goods. Matching them all up would be very difficult and time consuming.
Money is just a middle-man that makes everything easier. If I wanted Lando's diamonds, I wouldn't have to trade him my stone, I could sell my stone to penguin for money, and then take that money to buy the diamonds from Lando. Everyone wins and it is soooo much simpler and easier a transaction. This is why money exists in both real and virtual worlds. No MMO or other video game that has some way to exchange goods uses a barter system, because they are absolutely impractical. No country or society uses it either.
--- End quote ---
Your points would all be valid if this was not a survival server, which it is. The server was never supposed to run on the economy, it just turned out that way.
--- End quote ---
If your vision for a survival server is that everyone is on their own and doesn't cooperate or share resources, then yes, eliminating the economy would achieve that. I think that is a very big change, and a bad one. I think the ability to easily share, trade and cooperate is an important part of this server, and was certainly a perk when I first got here. Shutting that all down by removing money would, I feel, make it harder for new members to join and stay.
But I don't understand why you listed "addition of a player trading system" as a new proposal if you intend to eliminate player trading/exchange.
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