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Server News / Re: Proposed smp changes
« on: March 24, 2016, 01:45:16 am »
I've read through everything in the thread, and I'd like to begin by thanking Nick and the staff for opening this discussion and for seriously looking into improvements for the server. I'm also glad that with only a few exceptions, the discussion has been civil and constructive. Considering the far-reaching consequences of these changes, I'm pleased to see this discussion.
For my part, I am only here for one reason: my city. I have been working on it since the first moment I joined this server, back in the fall of 2012. It is more or less the only thing I have ever done in Minecraft and the only reason I play Minecraft. Needless to say, if that was wiped I'd have no reason to be here. I am, of course, strongly against erasing my work. Notwithstanding the practical difficulties involved, I'd be in favor of transferring it to a new world. But lacking that option, I'm very much against a server wipe.
I understand that certain areas, like the old guest world, don't look terribly nice, with lots of incongruous old builds packed close together. But judging from the creative server, that's just how people like to build. Go figure. What I don't understand however is the plea from some that playing becomes boring since they have their builds around. What's stopping you from just destroying it all and giving away all your items? Or heading off to some empty spot on the map (of which there are many), erasing all your /homes, and starting over? I don't see why you'd want to forcibly erase everyone else's builds to avoid having to start over on your own. Several people over the years have given away all their money and items and started over. Why don't you?
Those of us who haven't yet "reached the end" of our creativity and interest in our builds shouldn't suffer for your boredom.
But I didn't intend the server wipe to be the focus of this post, I see (thankfully) that it has been taken off the table.
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of a player trading system
I am very interested, and supportive, of changes to the economy system. I'd very much like some kind of actual market economy on the server. Where players can buy & sell whether they are online or not. This has been discussed many times before, and is a fantastic idea. I'm STRONGLY in favor of a completely player-run economy. I'd give specifics on how I think it should be run, but I'm not familiar with what plugins exist or what they're capable of. Gavin's suggestions are broadly on target. Players should buy and sell materials they've created/harvested, and they should set their own prices based on supply and demand. The server just needs to facilitate the method of exchange. Gavin suggested a barter system, glass for wool, or what-have-you. I'd advise against that, it'd be much clunkier than using money. I'm personally fine if we wipe out all the money we have now, but I strongly recommend we keep some kind of money system to use for buying/selling.
This system would still reward those who invest their time in making massive farms. They'd have more of a supply of items to sell, and can undercut the prices of anyone else. Of course if they flood the market with some item, it'd be worth much less (like how the price of dragon eggs declined sharply over the years as they became easier to get). But not all resources can be farmed. The price of iron might drop, but someone wanting to invest time in harvesting glowstone could probably still command a great price.
I think we shouldn't turn our noses up at those whose Minecraft ambition is to have the biggest pot of money. I don't care at all about it, but if it is an incentive to some players (and clearly it is) then let them seek out virtual riches by providing everyone else with a useful service of harvesting resources. For those who are bored with the server, this provides a great new fun activity. Some can aspire to corner the endstone market, or try to become a coal baron, etc. It would add a new dimension to the game.
I understand that the current market makes building easier (which is both a good or bad thing depending on perspective). I've personally been reluctant to use it too much (except as a way to sell all the stone & dirt and such I excavate), most of the materials I use in my city are things I've harvested myself. I'm really excited about the idea of a player-run economy. The current market distorts everything and I agree we should do away with it.
- Addition of pvp modes
I really don't have an opinion about PVP. I don't do it, and don't care about it. But if it'll get more players on the server (and if there is a way I can opt out of it so people don't just drop in on me in the middle of building and murder me) then I'm fine with whatever.
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
Eh, I dunno. If we go with a truly player-driven economy, then I'd like to have one common currency for all our transactions. Call it points, call it money, it doesn't matter. But if we want the economy to take off, then everything should be unified. I think the beauty of Minecraft is the way in which it mirrors life. Chop a tree, mine some stone, smelt some iron, etc. Build things out of the natural resources around us. That, I feel, is the essence of survival mode. Whenever we introduce a parallel reward system it takes our focus away from the primary system. We should buy protection or rare items with the same currency we use for player shops.
The one worry with introducing a purely player-run economy is getting it started. Without the easy money that comes from selling items to a server-run market, we'll need a real motivation to participate in it. If players really desire protection/rare items (and they do), then they'll work to harvest/sell items that people want, which will jumpstart the economy. It'll give us all a real incentive to get the economy working smoothly.
The trick then is how to handle voting & donation rewards. It could have the same kind of distortionary effect that the market currently does. So perhaps have a point system and allow one-way conversion of dollars for points. You vote & donate, you get points which can be spent on protection & rare items. You can convert money into points, but can't convert points into money.
I very much enjoy my current city protection, and for selfish reasons I'd like to preserve it. But protection is a very valuable commodity, and working to expand our protection field (through selling resources, voting or donating) would be a nice thing to drive our work (for those who are bored).
I'd prefer that over a system that awards spendable points for digging.
- Change to a player defined protection field system
I'm not sure what this means. But giving players more control over protection would be great. It would probably save staff some time/effort in administering things.
For my part, I am only here for one reason: my city. I have been working on it since the first moment I joined this server, back in the fall of 2012. It is more or less the only thing I have ever done in Minecraft and the only reason I play Minecraft. Needless to say, if that was wiped I'd have no reason to be here. I am, of course, strongly against erasing my work. Notwithstanding the practical difficulties involved, I'd be in favor of transferring it to a new world. But lacking that option, I'm very much against a server wipe.
I understand that certain areas, like the old guest world, don't look terribly nice, with lots of incongruous old builds packed close together. But judging from the creative server, that's just how people like to build. Go figure. What I don't understand however is the plea from some that playing becomes boring since they have their builds around. What's stopping you from just destroying it all and giving away all your items? Or heading off to some empty spot on the map (of which there are many), erasing all your /homes, and starting over? I don't see why you'd want to forcibly erase everyone else's builds to avoid having to start over on your own. Several people over the years have given away all their money and items and started over. Why don't you?
Those of us who haven't yet "reached the end" of our creativity and interest in our builds shouldn't suffer for your boredom.
But I didn't intend the server wipe to be the focus of this post, I see (thankfully) that it has been taken off the table.
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of a player trading system
I am very interested, and supportive, of changes to the economy system. I'd very much like some kind of actual market economy on the server. Where players can buy & sell whether they are online or not. This has been discussed many times before, and is a fantastic idea. I'm STRONGLY in favor of a completely player-run economy. I'd give specifics on how I think it should be run, but I'm not familiar with what plugins exist or what they're capable of. Gavin's suggestions are broadly on target. Players should buy and sell materials they've created/harvested, and they should set their own prices based on supply and demand. The server just needs to facilitate the method of exchange. Gavin suggested a barter system, glass for wool, or what-have-you. I'd advise against that, it'd be much clunkier than using money. I'm personally fine if we wipe out all the money we have now, but I strongly recommend we keep some kind of money system to use for buying/selling.
This system would still reward those who invest their time in making massive farms. They'd have more of a supply of items to sell, and can undercut the prices of anyone else. Of course if they flood the market with some item, it'd be worth much less (like how the price of dragon eggs declined sharply over the years as they became easier to get). But not all resources can be farmed. The price of iron might drop, but someone wanting to invest time in harvesting glowstone could probably still command a great price.
I think we shouldn't turn our noses up at those whose Minecraft ambition is to have the biggest pot of money. I don't care at all about it, but if it is an incentive to some players (and clearly it is) then let them seek out virtual riches by providing everyone else with a useful service of harvesting resources. For those who are bored with the server, this provides a great new fun activity. Some can aspire to corner the endstone market, or try to become a coal baron, etc. It would add a new dimension to the game.
I understand that the current market makes building easier (which is both a good or bad thing depending on perspective). I've personally been reluctant to use it too much (except as a way to sell all the stone & dirt and such I excavate), most of the materials I use in my city are things I've harvested myself. I'm really excited about the idea of a player-run economy. The current market distorts everything and I agree we should do away with it.
- Addition of pvp modes
I really don't have an opinion about PVP. I don't do it, and don't care about it. But if it'll get more players on the server (and if there is a way I can opt out of it so people don't just drop in on me in the middle of building and murder me) then I'm fine with whatever.
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
Eh, I dunno. If we go with a truly player-driven economy, then I'd like to have one common currency for all our transactions. Call it points, call it money, it doesn't matter. But if we want the economy to take off, then everything should be unified. I think the beauty of Minecraft is the way in which it mirrors life. Chop a tree, mine some stone, smelt some iron, etc. Build things out of the natural resources around us. That, I feel, is the essence of survival mode. Whenever we introduce a parallel reward system it takes our focus away from the primary system. We should buy protection or rare items with the same currency we use for player shops.
The one worry with introducing a purely player-run economy is getting it started. Without the easy money that comes from selling items to a server-run market, we'll need a real motivation to participate in it. If players really desire protection/rare items (and they do), then they'll work to harvest/sell items that people want, which will jumpstart the economy. It'll give us all a real incentive to get the economy working smoothly.
The trick then is how to handle voting & donation rewards. It could have the same kind of distortionary effect that the market currently does. So perhaps have a point system and allow one-way conversion of dollars for points. You vote & donate, you get points which can be spent on protection & rare items. You can convert money into points, but can't convert points into money.
I very much enjoy my current city protection, and for selfish reasons I'd like to preserve it. But protection is a very valuable commodity, and working to expand our protection field (through selling resources, voting or donating) would be a nice thing to drive our work (for those who are bored).
I'd prefer that over a system that awards spendable points for digging.
- Change to a player defined protection field system
I'm not sure what this means. But giving players more control over protection would be great. It would probably save staff some time/effort in administering things.