Discussion forum > Server News
Proposed smp changes
UnknownHedgehog:
--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:51:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 09:11:18 am ---
--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 08:57:13 am ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am ---Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure but that one seems to work with money. Isn't that the same as what we have now?
When the money is gone, how would it work?
I think we need to find one that does items for items. Or just build them ourselves.
--- End quote ---
I'm in favor if a money economy, but one where players strictly buy/sell things with other players at shops rather than selling things at the market. Nick asked for a plugin that would work for that that isn't complicated.
--- End quote ---
I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
--- End quote ---
Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).
Nick3306:
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am ---
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 02:46:39 am ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 12:53:38 am ---
--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:05:03 am ---
--- Quote from: TheWholeLoaf on March 25, 2016, 03:29:42 pm ---I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.
Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.
--- End quote ---
You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.
--- End quote ---
I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.
And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
--- End quote ---
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy. That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned that idea due the the mentioned problem.
--- End quote ---
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).
And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).
--- End quote ---
Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
UnknownHedgehog:
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 07:45:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 03:59:01 am ---
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 02:46:39 am ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 12:53:38 am ---
--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:05:03 am ---
--- Quote from: TheWholeLoaf on March 25, 2016, 03:29:42 pm ---I have never once proposed the idea of continuing to wipe the server over and over again, I would agree that several wipes would do nothing more than end Opticraft. I do not know what might happen after the server wipe and that concept is what excites me, that fact that anything could happen, a lot of which could be good for the server and community where as if things stay the same, I know exactly what will happen.
Sure you may have not used the market for your farms, and that is perfectly fine, but can you seriously tell me that for the majority of players that created farms, it was not for pumpkins, cacti, wheat and the most popular, melons? As far as I'm concerned, those are what kicked off automated farms in the first place for the sole purpose of getting money, not supplies. It is true that now we have more advanced farms like iron, gold, witch, and ender farms, but again, many of those are used to get money as well, if not selling the products from them, then selling access to them to players. A server wipe in conjunction with Nicks proposal of the points system and no money, the only incentive to build a farm would be either you enjoy how they work and enjoy building them, which players like you and gavin do, or for the resources which players like roza and several others use them for. I am alright with farms for the purposes of building them for the enjoyment and resources and team efforts in building them, not building them with the only incentive in mind being getting rich, but that's just me, and a wipe with the points system in place would fix that.
--- End quote ---
You want to level the playing field. In order to keep it that way you need wipe after wipe after wipe, otherwise it will turn into what we have now and that is not what you want.
If the money is removed, the whole idea of farming for money would be gone too. So removing the economy would be enough to stop the extreme farming. Actually, the items people were farming for money have been taken off the market so it has already stopped. Farming for resources would stay of course.
--- End quote ---
I think what he means by leveling the playing field is making it so that everyone is level after the numerous changes that have happened over the years that people use to profit off of that newer players can't; creating an unfair advantage. For example, one of the wealthiest players on the server still is somebody who sold melons at the market (he has long left since they were removed). Yes people would still have advantages due to the resources they would gain as time goes on depending on their dedication, but it wouldn't be an unfair advantage; everybody could be that successful if they worked hard enough.
And yes, removing money would solve the farming issue, much the same way removing a finger fixes a hang nail. It's not necessary to do to fix it, but it'd sure work. Ozzy's idea and mine for the market would just as well fix it. Supply and demand demands it pretty much. Ya, farms would still be there, but the profits would be negligible compared to the work that would be needed to make it. If nobody wants what they're farming, then it won't sell. If people do want what they're farming, it'd have to be at a fair price the players want, but the farmer wouldn't be able to sell everything quickly (thereby flooding the market), at least not without selling it at a ridiculously cheap price. Because really, who needs melons, cacti, iron, or gold that badly to where they would rather buy it at an expensive price vs simply mining it?
--- End quote ---
The whole point of getting rid of the economy is so the game goes back to being about survival and the server doesn't run on the economy. That said, once you find a way to let players have shops that isn't messy let us know. We wanted to do player shops when we first launched the server but abandoned that idea due the the mentioned problem.
--- End quote ---
Tbh, I don't know much about how this all works and all with plugins, but if you're really looking for one this isn't messy perhaps this:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/chestshop
Again I don't know all the specifics, but from I can read and get it seems simple (it's been 4 years since survival was launched, surely there's something that would work).
And I know that's the intention of removing an economy, I get that. All I'm simply saying is that I disapprove of that idea (along with other people too as it appears) Imo, an economy makes survival more interesting than vanilla survival and plus it's 100% optional. It's not like people would have to buy from other players if they didn't want to, while people who do like an economy can still play rather than forcing people who do like an economy play only vanilla survival. Even though if this idea for the economy went through it's not like it would completely null and void the survival aspect like the current economy (I don't think it would affect the survival aspect much at all, tbh, just an addition to it).
--- End quote ---
Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
--- End quote ---
What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).
OzzyKP:
I found a few options for an economy plugin:
http://mods.curse.com/bukkit-plugins/minecraft/gui-seller-shop
http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/gui-shop/
https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/hshop.18980/
https://www.spigotmc.org/resources/better-shops.1758/
The first two are GUI shops, the second two use signs/chests. Unfortunately most of the ones I've found haven't yet been updated to 1.9. Though I imagine that'll be coming soon, it hasn't been out for long. A lot of the plugins have rather poor explanations/documentation, but I'm at work and don't have all that much time to investigate. Plus I've never run a server so don't know precisely what I should be looking for, but there definitely seem to be options.
A GUI shop would be ideal, and it looks like there are a few options out there, but even a sign/chest shop wouldn't be so bad. We could put limits on it to stop spam.
It sounds like there are two concerns about sign shop mess/spam:
1. Lots of people advertising their shops in chat.
2. Lots of signs/chests placed all over the place and looking cluttered/messy.
For the first concern, it doesn't sound much different than what we have now. We have the /t chat room for people to ask for things to buy and offer things to sell. That happens now, and would still happen even if money were abolished and we all had to barter. Players can leave that chat room to avoid it.
For the second concern, one option would be to have a limited number of shops that could be created in a central market (we can repurpose the current market). And we could proscribe how they look (not placed in random places in the walkway or anything). Further regulations, either through a tax/fee, or time limit, or just booting out vacant shops could ensure the shops in the space are active.
Personally I wouldn't mind allowing people to set up shops in their own homes/cities. It would be neat to set up automated shops in all the restaurants & businesses I've created in my city. And looking through the abandoned homes of old players it looks like during Opticraft's heyday there were quite a lot of player-run shops, so it looks like players enjoy making them. Maybe you could restrict sign shops to only be in protected areas (i.e. not in no-man's land outside of spawns). I'm sure it could be managed.
Whether we have a GUI or signs, I think it would be an improved system.
OzzyKP:
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 07:06:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 26, 2016, 12:51:26 pm ---I see what you mean now, just one problem, how would we start trading when noone has any money? Where would we get the money?
--- End quote ---
Everybody would have to start off with a certain amount when they first join the server, or, for players already on Opticraft, when the economy changes. For example, everybody (including new players that would join) could start with $1,000 just to start off with. Also, perhaps give people an incentive to vote for the server by giving money too (this isn't really part of my idea for economy due to the higher inflation of money that would inevitably come, but still a thought for how to 1) Not run out of money and 2) have people vote).
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 26, 2016, 08:00:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 26, 2016, 07:45:56 pm ---Those have been around forever, it just turns parts of the server into a spamfest of chests, that's what I meant by messy
--- End quote ---
What if chest shops could only be opened in one location? Like a market, but player oriented. Thereby allocating all the chests to one spot (possibly even a chest limit per player so that it doesn't get out of hand) Or also possibly letting players open their owns shops where the mess would be their problem to deal with if they don't make it look nice. And honestly I see that as a means to an end to have those chests if it meant that the economy would be player run (and if it was done right to where it was built in a way that doesn't look messy which I don't think would be too bad to do).
--- End quote ---
I agree with everything Hedgehog's suggested about the money supply and avoiding a spamfest of chests. But again, there looks to be some GUI-based economy plugins out there.
I think giving money as a voting reward would be a less disruptive reward than diamonds, and would be a good way to get money into the system. But, as Hedgehog mentioned, could result in ever increasing inflation. We could also make the money supply dependent on certain resources that have to be mined (i.e. nothing that could ever be farmed), like gold or iron ore. Players could trade those in for money at a fixed rate. I dunno, just a thought.
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