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Proposed smp changes

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Roza:
first a complete wipe is off the table and discussing it further creates division among players, so lets move on to the economy

I believe that having a player based economy will not equalize the playing field, those who are adapt at redstone afk massive farms will still prevail and set the rates, usually beyond what regular players can afford and it will do nothing to eliminate or control these massive builds.  It was pointed out to me that my public guardian farm has generally provided a limitless supply of these blocks for the entire server, and that guardian farms are massive and ugly.  I built the farm and my private one because I wanted to build an ocean monument, and I personally felt the market price of the blocks was to high as well as the price set by other players.  If we were points driven (as I understand the proposed change, although my view point may be incorrect), and player trade driven I would still have made the farms, maybe taken a little longer but I would have made them all the same.

I would like to see a market economy, I chose this server not just because of who played on it but because it offered the best of both worlds, survival and economy combined to leave the choice up to the individual player as to how they want to play the game.  Yes some people went farm crazy and built massive redstone run farms, others ignore the market and play on survivor basis only, and some do a combination of those choices.  I believe that a points system will not change this except to limit the players ability to obtain blocks previously purchased at market.  The point is, this system allows players to decide how they want to play the game and that its their own choices that make the game fun or boring.

someone asked what it is that I as player who voted no to the complete wipe do to keep from getting bored, its simple, I look at interior design magazines, and wonder if I could possible do that in minecraft, or I watch a rerun of an old favorite movie (now you know where Astoria came from) and I think, that would be fun, after google searches to see if it was already done on mc, I discovered really not so great attempts, so I made my own attempt.  Now I am trying to build as many farms in one place redstone free.  they are all manual, except the iron farm that I bought and built around
and at the same time make it appealing to look around the entire place.  When I take a walk or a drive and I see some really interesting building, or maybe just one aspect of that building, I keep it in mind in case I can use that feature in a build.  sometimes they work out great and others fail miserable, but I keep trying because I like it.

I also like to play here because I feel safe playing this game with my grandchildren on this server.  We live far apart and this server and game has made it possible to be involved in their lives.  Opticalza has made a terrific server and there have been many staff over the years who have helped along the way, some ideas were successful and some not so much.  I believe all have added value to the community and made it the server I enjoy now, so thank you all.

On a final note: Before you vote for change, we must ask ourselves what is the purpose of this change and will it be effective in accomplishing our goal?  So I ask you, what is the purpose of changing to a  point system, what are the specific new rules and regulations to accompany it, and why do you think it will achieve your goal?

TheWholeLoaf:

--- Quote from: Roza on March 25, 2016, 02:35:56 am ---first a complete wipe is off the table and discussing it further creates division among players, so lets move on to the economy.

--- End quote ---

This is a discussion, nothing is set in stone therefore it can still be discussed and there are plenty of people willing to support it that didn't get a chance to before it was taken off the list. Obviously if players are still talking about it and supporting it, it may have been taken off the table prematurely and there was never really a reason provided as to why it was taken off, especially when there are several votes for it. If players want to support it, they may do so, if they wish to oppose it, they may do so.

Lando_V:

--- Quote from: TheWholeLoaf on March 24, 2016, 08:22:33 pm ---My argument to wipe the server to level the playing field is not a void point. I am mainly speaking of the newer players vs older players, where as the older players have had more time to play, the newer players would not be able to ever catch up in terms of wealth. And when I say wealth, I am in no means only referring to money, but supplies in general.

You say that if a server wipe were to happen, the division of wealth would be pretty noticeable within the first few days. I disagree, mainly because the players that have overwhelming supplies will no longer have these, there will be no easy way to get back to where they once were. I am also in favor of the economic changes, to get rid of money all together and make the only opportunity to get resources that players have is to either get it themselves or work with others in order to get it. If farms still arise after that, I am perfectly fine with it, but players will not have such things as the market to help them get there, things like the price of melons helping them get all the money they would ever need to help support their later farms.

You are correct in calling me out on end cities, I was not aware that the end was now infinite, however, I assume there is still a boarder on it as there is with the main worlds and nether worlds, so there is still a finite supply of these cities.

--- End quote ---

But it is a void point! After a whipe the current situation would appear again, farms would be built again and large differences will be noticeable within a few days.
You speak of the use of the market to build farms. I didn't use the market at all for my farms. When I joined I began at zero and there were players with millions. That didn't hinder me in any way to build and develop myself and look where I am now. New players wouldn't be able to catch up? I did!

Regarding the new end world, yes you are right, there could be a border (the  borders are  somewhere but it is unlikely because I'm already 30.000 blocks out and the cities keep coming. (And that's just in one straight direction.) So the amount of cities is overwhelming and more than enough for hundreds possibly thousands of players.




Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the developement, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My developement would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.

OzzyKP:

--- Quote from: Lando_V on March 25, 2016, 12:50:30 pm ---Your idea of this server is wipe after wipe after wipe. Because that is what you will need to level the playing field. Differences will occur in no time at all so you would need another wipe. And you will have to repeat that  because else the current situation will appear again and again. Huge farms will be built without the use of a market and we will be back where we are now.

That's not how I would like to see this server. I like the development, the history, the differences.
My idea is "Live and let live". I'm not in any way hindering you from playing the game, developing yourself, building, etc. But you are hindering me when you ask for a wipe. My development would be gone, my builds would be gone, etc.

--- End quote ---

I couldn't agree more! 


--- Quote from: Roza on March 25, 2016, 02:35:56 am ---I believe that having a player based economy will not equalize the playing field, those who are adapt at redstone afk massive farms will still prevail and set the rates, usually beyond what regular players can afford and it will do nothing to eliminate or control these massive builds.  It was pointed out to me that my public guardian farm has generally provided a limitless supply of these blocks for the entire server, and that guardian farms are massive and ugly.  I built the farm and my private one because I wanted to build an ocean monument, and I personally felt the market price of the blocks was to high as well as the price set by other players.  If we were points driven (as I understand the proposed change, although my view point may be incorrect), and player trade driven I would still have made the farms, maybe taken a little longer but I would have made them all the same.

I would like to see a market economy, I chose this server not just because of who played on it but because it offered the best of both worlds, survival and economy combined to leave the choice up to the individual player as to how they want to play the game.  Yes some people went farm crazy and built massive redstone run farms, others ignore the market and play on survivor basis only, and some do a combination of those choices.  I believe that a points system will not change this except to limit the players ability to obtain blocks previously purchased at market.  The point is, this system allows players to decide how they want to play the game and that its their own choices that make the game fun or boring.
--- End quote ---

It looks like there is a lot of confusion over what is being proposed.  I was very confused as well.  I'll try to break it down:

Our Current Economic System
Our current economy contains three main elements.  I think folks who identify bad results are blaming the wrong element, and want to throw the whole thing out the window.  What our current economy has is:

Currency - A virtual currency (money) that players can exchange and accumulate.  They can use the money to buy protection stones, blocks (from other players, or the server-run market), pay each other for doing jobs/helping out, buy builds/property from others, and give away as gifts.  This currency could be called dollars, or money, or points, or any other term, but its purpose remains the same, to be a 'medium of exchange' and make it much easier to exchange goods and services.  Currency is merely a symbol that represents the value of an item. 

Player Trading - We are currently able to give, sell, buy or trade goods and services with each other.  We can set whatever price (even free!) we want.  This is (with an important caveat) set by supply and demand.  A few years ago it was very hard to get a dragon egg, they were very rare, so people were successfully selling them for $50,000 or more.  Now they are much more common so the price has dropped.  This is what happens when players are free to trade things with each other. 

Server-run Market - This, we are all familiar with, is a market owned and operated by the server itself.  Prices are fixed and never/rarely change.  The blocks sold at the market are conjured out of thin air.  They are not harvested within the game (like goods players trade).  Having an infinite supply of blocks (and an infinite demand for blocks) makes it very easy to build up lots of money and avoid harvesting things yourself.  This does, as some point out, remove some of the survival aspect of the server.  All the big issues we've had with the economy in the past (melons, iron, gold) have been driven by this infinite, artificial, server-run market that will buy something forever.  Removing melons from the market killed the incentive to make melon farms.  Removing iron & gold from the market has greatly reduced the incentive to make iron & gold farms, but not completely destroyed it, because those blocks are still useful for players.

Nick's Proposed Economic System

No Currency - Nick proposes eliminating currency.  We will no longer be able to buy blocks from each other.  We will no longer be able to pay someone $1,000 to help us dig out a hole.  We will no longer be able to buy a mansion or castle from another player.  We will no longer be able to sell access to an iron farm or enderman farm.  He doesn't just want to create a "points system" in place of a "money system".  Points will be separate.  He wants to get rid of currency altogether.

Player Trading - Nick intends to keep player trading, but without currency it will become extremely difficult.  So difficult, in my view, that no one will do it.  We will be left with nothing but primitive barter.  We can give our blocks for someone else's blocks directly.  If I have stone and you have iron, I better hope you want stone in exchange or we won't be interested in trading.   It will be a very cumbersome, inefficient & time-consuming way of trading. 

No Server-run Market - This will be gone (and good riddance).  But Nick did mention being able to buy protection & rare items with "points".  That's fine, since we would need some way to get those items.  It is just a question of what is considered a rare item.

A Player-Run Proposed Economic System
This is what I (and many others here) would like to see. 

Currency - We'd keep a currency (call it points or money, I don't care).  I'm fine with zeroing out everyone's balances so we can start from scratch (or reducing everyone to a few thousand bucks).  As in any other economic model we'd have to tweak the money supply, but overall having currency is hugely helpful.  There are just too many things that can't be bartered for.

Player Trading - This would exist, largely as it does now, with players able to buy/sell things to other players at whatever price they agree to.  They can sell access to their farm, or sell their entire build, or trade blocks/items, etc.  It'd be a free market and the fairest, most open system we could have.  The only change is that there would be some new mechanism (sign shops, auction system, or GUI trading platform) that facilitates the buying & selling of blocks between players.

No Server-run Market - This would be gone.  No more infinite supply of blocks.  The only way to get something is to dig it out of the ground or grow it.  This would eliminate all the price distortion that exists because of the server-run market.  Items that people produce will be items that others need.  No more giant melon farms or other silly ways to exploit the system. 

I contend that the problem with our current economy isn't the fact that we have money.  The problem is that there is a server-run market that buys & sells infinite amounts of items.  Get rid of the server-run market, make it easier for players to buy & sell with each other, and we'll be set.


--- Quote from: Roza on March 25, 2016, 02:35:56 am ---On a final note: Before you vote for change, we must ask ourselves what is the purpose of this change and will it be effective in accomplishing our goal?  So I ask you, what is the purpose of changing to a  point system, what are the specific new rules and regulations to accompany it, and why do you think it will achieve your goal?

--- End quote ---

I agree this is something we should discuss (I did my best to lay it all out above). What do people feel is the current problem with the economy (my simple answer is the server-run market)?  And how would you propose fixing it? 

Nick3306:
My proposed system is to turn this into an actual survival server, the points are only there so players can buy protection for their builds.
When we were first launching this server, optical, relkeb and I discussed player shops, we came to the conclusion that it was too messy and too hard to maintain which is why we went with the server market. I'm not sure if anything has changed since then to prevent it from being a total mess.

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