Discussion forum > Server News
Proposed smp changes
TheWholeLoaf:
--- Quote from: kagarium on March 23, 2016, 10:53:58 pm ---
Maybe as a compromise some of the builds on the server could be moved to the new map. Criteria for that could be something like: 1-Player who owns the build must still be active 2-Must be at least X by X by X large 3- Must have previously obtained a project/city protection.
Probably could be improved a bit, but that's just and idea of something that might work
--- End quote ---
I have thought about this idea several times in the past, but I believe it would be far too complicated and have too many issues to be done successfully. It would take a vast amount of time for the few upper staff to get this done, either by WEing over the builds or using mceidt. Also, not every build works well when its taken out of the context of the landscape it was built into, we cant just take a build that was in the side of a mountain and try to fit it perfectly into a new world. Also, we would have to give a time slot for people to submit an application of shorts for something like this, over a long period of time so that our newer players that have settled in have a chance to see whats going to happen and react, otherwise, there will be a large amount of people who never got the chance to request their build moved.
The prospect of only moving builds that have been granted project protection only helps out our older players, who have had many years of game play with their builds where as the newer members would get nothing of the sorts. I feel most older members would continue playing because they love the community while the newer players don't quite know the community yet and might need some more incentive.
Something I thought that could possibly replace this idea, is that everyone can move one inventory full of stuff over to the new world. This would give the newer players that just started the chance to continue on what they have done, and give players the chance to take some of their builds down and recreate them. This would of course mean that they would not be available in the downloadable worlds however.
Just a thought to help out the newer members if there is a server wipe.
I'm wondering why a server wipe was taken off the table so early into the debate. As with most things, there's a substantial divide between opinions on this one matter, but I believe that offering the worlds as downloads is a pretty good middle ground.
--- Quote from: daniblue182 on March 23, 2016, 11:23:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: UnknownHedgehog on March 23, 2016, 09:55:31 pm ---Perhaps we shouldn't cross out the idea of a server wipe just yet due to further support.
--- End quote ---
I support this ^_^
--- End quote ---
I also support this.
OzzyKP:
I've read through everything in the thread, and I'd like to begin by thanking Nick and the staff for opening this discussion and for seriously looking into improvements for the server. I'm also glad that with only a few exceptions, the discussion has been civil and constructive. Considering the far-reaching consequences of these changes, I'm pleased to see this discussion.
For my part, I am only here for one reason: my city. I have been working on it since the first moment I joined this server, back in the fall of 2012. It is more or less the only thing I have ever done in Minecraft and the only reason I play Minecraft. Needless to say, if that was wiped I'd have no reason to be here. I am, of course, strongly against erasing my work. Notwithstanding the practical difficulties involved, I'd be in favor of transferring it to a new world. But lacking that option, I'm very much against a server wipe.
I understand that certain areas, like the old guest world, don't look terribly nice, with lots of incongruous old builds packed close together. But judging from the creative server, that's just how people like to build. Go figure. What I don't understand however is the plea from some that playing becomes boring since they have their builds around. What's stopping you from just destroying it all and giving away all your items? Or heading off to some empty spot on the map (of which there are many), erasing all your /homes, and starting over? I don't see why you'd want to forcibly erase everyone else's builds to avoid having to start over on your own. Several people over the years have given away all their money and items and started over. Why don't you?
Those of us who haven't yet "reached the end" of our creativity and interest in our builds shouldn't suffer for your boredom.
But I didn't intend the server wipe to be the focus of this post, I see (thankfully) that it has been taken off the table.
- Simplification or removal of the economy system.
- Addition of a player trading system
I am very interested, and supportive, of changes to the economy system. I'd very much like some kind of actual market economy on the server. Where players can buy & sell whether they are online or not. This has been discussed many times before, and is a fantastic idea. I'm STRONGLY in favor of a completely player-run economy. I'd give specifics on how I think it should be run, but I'm not familiar with what plugins exist or what they're capable of. Gavin's suggestions are broadly on target. Players should buy and sell materials they've created/harvested, and they should set their own prices based on supply and demand. The server just needs to facilitate the method of exchange. Gavin suggested a barter system, glass for wool, or what-have-you. I'd advise against that, it'd be much clunkier than using money. I'm personally fine if we wipe out all the money we have now, but I strongly recommend we keep some kind of money system to use for buying/selling.
This system would still reward those who invest their time in making massive farms. They'd have more of a supply of items to sell, and can undercut the prices of anyone else. Of course if they flood the market with some item, it'd be worth much less (like how the price of dragon eggs declined sharply over the years as they became easier to get). But not all resources can be farmed. The price of iron might drop, but someone wanting to invest time in harvesting glowstone could probably still command a great price.
I think we shouldn't turn our noses up at those whose Minecraft ambition is to have the biggest pot of money. I don't care at all about it, but if it is an incentive to some players (and clearly it is) then let them seek out virtual riches by providing everyone else with a useful service of harvesting resources. For those who are bored with the server, this provides a great new fun activity. Some can aspire to corner the endstone market, or try to become a coal baron, etc. It would add a new dimension to the game.
I understand that the current market makes building easier (which is both a good or bad thing depending on perspective). I've personally been reluctant to use it too much (except as a way to sell all the stone & dirt and such I excavate), most of the materials I use in my city are things I've harvested myself. I'm really excited about the idea of a player-run economy. The current market distorts everything and I agree we should do away with it.
- Addition of pvp modes
I really don't have an opinion about PVP. I don't do it, and don't care about it. But if it'll get more players on the server (and if there is a way I can opt out of it so people don't just drop in on me in the middle of building and murder me) then I'm fine with whatever.
- Points system where players accumulate points for things like voting and doing everyday survival activities. These points can be used to buy protection or rare items.
Eh, I dunno. If we go with a truly player-driven economy, then I'd like to have one common currency for all our transactions. Call it points, call it money, it doesn't matter. But if we want the economy to take off, then everything should be unified. I think the beauty of Minecraft is the way in which it mirrors life. Chop a tree, mine some stone, smelt some iron, etc. Build things out of the natural resources around us. That, I feel, is the essence of survival mode. Whenever we introduce a parallel reward system it takes our focus away from the primary system. We should buy protection or rare items with the same currency we use for player shops.
The one worry with introducing a purely player-run economy is getting it started. Without the easy money that comes from selling items to a server-run market, we'll need a real motivation to participate in it. If players really desire protection/rare items (and they do), then they'll work to harvest/sell items that people want, which will jumpstart the economy. It'll give us all a real incentive to get the economy working smoothly.
The trick then is how to handle voting & donation rewards. It could have the same kind of distortionary effect that the market currently does. So perhaps have a point system and allow one-way conversion of dollars for points. You vote & donate, you get points which can be spent on protection & rare items. You can convert money into points, but can't convert points into money.
I very much enjoy my current city protection, and for selfish reasons I'd like to preserve it. But protection is a very valuable commodity, and working to expand our protection field (through selling resources, voting or donating) would be a nice thing to drive our work (for those who are bored).
I'd prefer that over a system that awards spendable points for digging.
- Change to a player defined protection field system
I'm not sure what this means. But giving players more control over protection would be great. It would probably save staff some time/effort in administering things.
OzzyKP:
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:44:31 am ---So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
--- End quote ---
The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot.
I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior. People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points. If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points. The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff.
Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points. They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants. Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them. The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.
Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run
Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be). Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find. They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them). The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
Nick3306:
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:03:16 am ---
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:44:31 am ---So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
--- End quote ---
The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot.
I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior. People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points. If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points. The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff.
Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points. They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants. Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them. The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.
Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run
Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be). Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find. They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them). The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
--- End quote ---
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.
OzzyKP:
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 24, 2016, 02:15:05 am ---
--- Quote from: OzzyKP on March 24, 2016, 02:03:16 am ---
--- Quote from: Nick3306 on March 20, 2016, 01:44:31 am ---So I want to expand on our ideas for the points system. Basically the idea is for points to be taking the place of money. Everyday activities like mining and farming and whatnot will give the user points they can spend on things like protection. Voting would be the quickest way to gain points as well as any events we may run. The market would be completely gone except for the ability to buy a few items that you simply can not get in game any other way. A player trading system or a player shop system could be implemented to help players trade more easily and safely. I feel this would not only fix the broken nature of the economy, it would also encourage voting and encourage people to play more instead of afking at farms.
--- End quote ---
The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving points for mining/farming/whatnot.
I think it encourages all sorts of weird behavior. People planting huge fields, harvesting all the crops and tossing them away because they really just want to earn points. If someone wants to earn points I'd rather they spend their time harvesting some item that other people on the server actually want than just some some inane, artificial, repetitive task to score points. The forces of supply & demand are far more effective at properly directing people's activity than a convoluted system of rewards & punishments cooked up by staff.
Option A: Points given for mining/farming/etc
Players spend their time digging giant holes for no purpose other than to get points. They end up with tons of cobble & dirt that no one wants. Those people who want harder to find items are out of luck, since no one is looking for them. The economy falls apart and players get nostalgic for the old system of a market that had everything they wanted at fixed prices.
Option B: Points can be purchased with money, economy is totally player-run
Players no longer have infinite sources of glowstone & diamonds (for example), suddenly those items are super valuable (as they should be). Players who want to score points, instead of digging big holes in the ground, will seek out all the diamonds & glowstone they can find. They sell them to other players (who pay a good price for them, because they really need them). The diamond miner is rewarded with lots of cash he can turn into points.
--- End quote ---
that's the thing, if there was a points system there would be no money. Like I explained to cora, we can control the points system to stop people from farming points. The main and best way to get points would be to vote by a long shot. The small amount of points you would get from everyday activities would just be to reward players who play often.
--- End quote ---
How will players buy & sell items with each other if there is no currency?
If you just want to rename "money" to "points" then fine, I don't care what you call it. But you need *something* besides straight barter.
You don't need to control the point system. That's the beauty of a player-run economy. I can create the most massive melon farm the server has ever seen, but if no one wants to buy my melons then it won't do me any good. The price for anything will adjust based on supply and demand. If there are lots of iron farms the price will drop. That's how it is supposed to work, we shouldn't try to restrict or control things. Just let things run their course.
If we reward people for everyday things then then the reward loses all value. Reward people for doing things that help the server (i.e. producing resources that other people want) not for killing random zombies or digging holes in the ground.
If we do that we'll have just as broken an economy as we currently do.
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